DMP Mini Challenge_006 - December 2014 - Kung Fu Flashback

#14

Glad you’re coming back! Oh you would only pick the sequence just to base your work off of, but this is a still frame image, not an animated one (that would fit image wise in a sequence).

#15

We’d like to introduce this month’s special guest judge, Scott Brisbane!

Scott has been very busy over his ten year career working on a series of blockbuster films with a variety of “A List” companies. He currently holds the position of Head of Matte Painting for Dreamworks Animation where he is currently working on How to Train Your Dragon 2 and Kung Fu Panda 3 having just completed work on The Croods.

It all started when he graduated from USC’s School of Cinema-TV with a degree in Cinematography. He went on to study matte painting at the Academy of Art University in San Francisco and was hired shortly there after as a Digital Matte Artist at Matte World Digital (MWD).

While at MWD, Scott created concepts and final matte paintings for numerous projects including The Alamo, The Last Samurai, Catwoman, and the Imax film Greece: Secrets of the Past.

Scott joined Dreamworks Animation in 2005 where he built his credit list to include Over the Hedge, Flushed Away, and Shrek the Third. He was promoted to Lead Matte Painter on Kung Fu Panda, where he supervised a team of 15 artists. This was the first film at the studio in which Vue was used extensively to create the environments for over 700 shots in the film.

In 2008, Scott served as the Matte Painting Supervisor at Dreamworks Animation for the studio’s first stereoscopic movie, Monsters vs. Aliens. This film allowed the matte department the opportunity to push the boundaries of digital environments in 3D.

With his work on Monsters vs. Aliens completed Scott joined the team at Rhythm and Hues Studios to work on Land of the Lost, The Wolfman and The Cabin in the Woods.

In 2009, Scott made a move to New Zealand to join the Matte Painting Department at Weta Digital to work as Senior Matte Painter on James Cameron’s Avatar where he and his his team won a VES Award for “Outstanding Matte Paintings in a Feature Motion Picture”. Scott also regularly teaches for Studio Arts in Los Angeles.

Scott will be teaching the upcoming new workshop, “Matte Painting with Vue” in January 12, 2015. To sign up, go here! http://training.cgsociety.org/training/course/matte-painting-with-vue

Scott on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/pub/scott-brisbane/1/750/69b
Scott on IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1504546/
Scott’s Interview on CGSociety: http://www.cgsociety.org/index.php/CGSFeatures/CGSFeatureSpecial/interview_with_scott_brisbane_dreamworks_animation

Some of Scott’s Digital Matte Painting work:

The Croods

How to Train Your Dragon 2

Land of the Lost

Avatar

Kung Fu Panda

#16

Heya everyone!!

Please give a warm welcome to Scott and feel free to ask him questions, especially regarding feature film animation in particular. He’s probably the most qualified person to answer them.

This is your chance to get some insight info!!

Just sayin’
Milan

#17

Hello Scott. First of all it’s great to hear that you are in Judge Team this month (I had a feeling that David’s example for thread name wasn’t coincidence ;)). My fingers are shaking a little as I write this (I’m not worthy, I’m not worthy…) :wink: But… well… coward dies thousand times, brave only one, so…

This is the sixth monthly challenge provided by David and Milan (It’s really hard to overvalue what you are doing here for us all and you have my gratitude forever…). All previous challenges had at least one common feature - photorealism. This month is different. And I must admit, that I have a special pleasure working on this kind of matte painting. I think it’s too soon to tell if it’s a permanent break for me or not (right now I feel that way), but it would be great to hear what you could tell us about differences in DMP for movies like “Avatar”, “The Last Samurai”, “Vikings”, movies like “Kung Fu Panda”, “How to Train Your Dragon”, “The Croods” and animations for games… Because of specialization it would be good to hear some advices from you David and Milan for someone who would like to focus on one of this kind of matte painting. Additionally - I would be grateful for the same advice concerning 2D / 3D. Especially in a context of mentioned types of DMP.

Thank you very much in advance for your answers.

Regards
Jonatan

#18

Hi Scott, its a pleasure to meet you on here, love your work! Its nice we have the privelege to ask questions like this, I’ll try keep it short and sweet.

Here’s my question:

  • Matte painting for animation is obviously very different from live action feature film productions, I’m curious if the skill to model your own assets, project and composite your painting is becoming more a necessity even within the animation field now? I say this as I’m pretty clueless about the true technical side of Matte painting, I know a little but I really find this area to be lacking in resources for self teaching people like myself, and the more technology evolves the more worried I become that I can’t keep up.

Main reason for asking this is because I consider myself more artistic than techy, I’d just like to know if I would be considered less of an asset, than someone who is for e.g less artistically skilled, and more technical-focused.

Thanks you very much for your time :slight_smile:
kind regards, Aaron

#19

Thank you David and Milan for providing this amazing and really priceless opportunity to grow and learn as an artist and matte painter, and thank you Scott for adding to that this month.

Scott, my own questions tie in what Jonatan and Aaron have asked and I’m looking forward to hearing feedback about their questions. I’m specifically interested to hear you speak to the technical similarities/differences of working on live action film at MWD vs. animation at DWA.

If you’re willing, I’d also be curious to hear what insights you, David, and Milan may have on the following:

(On studio practice)
Is the use of photographic source material (as just one of many painting/layering/texturing techniques for building a stylized image) acceptable practice for the creation of matte paintings or texture assets for animation at Dreamworks? Or are all DWA assets strictly hand painted?

(On recruiting & artistic style)
[I]In regards to recruiting artists for matte painting, do film and/or animation studios like Dreamworks, MWD, Mr.X, Blizzard Entertainment, etc. generally look solely (or perhaps just primarily) for work that matches or fits seamlessly within the existing end product studio style and, if so, does the recruiting process therefore essentially disregard artists with portfolios demonstrating styles that don’t fit into the very specific stylized category seen in past films done by that studio? Or, again in regards to recruiting, do studios generally value personal style over conformity at the outset and simply look for undeniable artistic ability that demonstrates promise, with the understanding that variety is the spice of life and a talented artist can mold their work to fit a given style, and because upcoming films will likely vary in style anyway?

Does the answer also apply to recruiting for concept artist positions as well, where the entire point (not unlike a matte painter) is to show creativity and vision?[/I]

(On skills)
Like Charlie Bucket, I happen to live a block from Pixar. (Alas, no golden tickets but lots of chocolate.) I spoke with a Pixar Art Director & Matte Painter aqaintance at the CTN expo in LA last month and was sorry to hear him say they will probably not be hiring many matte painters in the future since (to paraphrase) “Unlike in most live action film where matte painters are still essential, our environments are trending towards being fully 3D and the need for matte painters is therefore limited.” I realize it probably differs from company to company and the statement was just an offhand comment and his personal opinion, but not exactly what an aspiring matte painter interested in animation wants to hear.

In regards to hiring, does Dreamworks (and live action film studios, for that matter) also now place a higher value on 3D environment building skills over traditional artistic ability and matte painting + compositing skills? In other words, is fully 3D environment creation (Vue, Maya) completely replacing 2d paintings and 3D camera projection matte painting techniques in animation? Must a matte painter encompass everything at this point?

Loaded questions, I know.
Sorry I’m so wordy. Oops. You said to ask questions, so I’m asking. :rolleyes:

Hope you can take a moment to enlighten me… your sage advice is truly appreciated!
Thank you, Scott, and thanks again Milan and David.

Thad
www.thadwarren.com

#20

Hello Scott and thank you for taking the time to interact with us here on CGSociety. Big thanks to Milan and David as well for their amazing feedback and guidance each month. It really means a lot to those of us who are still striving to improve and make a living doing something we are all very passionate about. I am extremely interested in hearing the answers to Jonatan, Aaron, and Thaddeus’ questions, as they have touched on many aspects of this type of work that I am also very curious about.

However, I would like to direct my questions towards a different aspect of working as a visual effects artist in today’s professional environment. As I’m sure you already know, this industry is extremely competitive and also pretty volatile. With tax subsidies forcing a lot of the work outside of the U.S. (not necessarily a bad thing for those abroad and those willing to travel), the consistent shutting down of numerous VFX houses, and now the scandals with wage fixing being commonplace among many prestigious studios, what would be your best advice for a newcomer to this industry who still has a long climb ahead of them?

How can we help to remedy the situation in the future to ensure more job stability and fairer wages for everyone? Although I have yet to experience it first hand, I have a few friends who have been subject to mass layoffs at various studios. Do you feel that companies are more loyal or less loyal to employees today than they have been in the past? There are now more opportunities and different avenues to explore for artists than there have ever been before. And even for someone who is very passionate about working for a major studio, is it perhaps wiser to pursue personal projects? Or is it possible to do both?

I know these questions probably come with complicated answers, but I feel they are important issues for all of us in this industry, and would love to get the opinion of a more seasoned artist such as yourself. Thanks again for your time, it really does mean a lot.

Kind regards,
-Hemal

#21

great article about the industry from mike seymour here; www.fxguide.com/featured/a-way-forward-for-the-vfx-industry/

#22

Thanks for that link Dave. That article has actually answered a lot of my questions, and posed quite a few new ones haha. It’s really got me thinking. The comments are gold as well.

#23

Thanks for the warm welcome and kind words Jonathan! Also, my apologies for the late reply to everyone. Holiday madness has consumed me!

Great question regarding the differences between photoreal vfx and animation matte painting. The goal is always to create a seamless extension of the world you are painting too. Both VFX and Animation have this goal in common. The greatest challenge for matte painting in animation is matching the style of the film. Obviously, “Kung Fu Panda” is more stylized than “How to Train Your Dragon”. We use all the same techniques as 2D and 3D techniques as vfx. Often, the look is very tangible texturally but colors are pushed way more in animation. The “rules” are more subjective to the style of the film rather than to the “rules” of nature like photoreal. We are often asked to make it look less “realistic”. The opposite is true in vfx. If it looks at all manipulated or painted then it is considered a failure.

I enjoy both types of matte painting. Photoreal really means you need to use photography for everything and be very careful how you choose your reference. In animation we tend to use more 3D renders from applications like Vue or Maya since that is the look we are going for. Photography is definitely still important but it is often painted over to remove some of the photographic qualities and detail. We need to simplify it to match the CG.

Photoshop is our main painting tool. We also create our own models when needed for texturing and lighting as a quick base in Maya and Vue. Then paint over them and camera map in Nuke for our final renders. Our main workflow is to approach the worlds as large cycloramas’s as much as possible. This means we create 12k paintings to cover an entire sequence of shots rather than “one offs” like vfx. We then “break out” special one off shots where the cyc does not work.

Hope this answers some of your questions :slight_smile:

Happy Holidays!

Scott

#24

Very interesting and enlightening response… thank you, Scott.

12K paintings?? Holy cannoli, batman! I’d love to see (or maybe I should say enter) one of those up close.

I’m hoping you and/or David and Milan will please please quickly weigh in on this question…

Was trying to be specific, but I’m basically just curious what different studios typically look for when recruiting matte painters and if most only consider a narrow range of style (i.e., work that emulates that of the studio) when viewing portfolios or if recruiters generally prefer to see a broader range of artistic ability, as long as it feels relevant?

It’s something I’ve always wondered about and will appreciate your input, thank you! :slight_smile:

Thad
www.thadwarren.com

#25

Great questions from everyone, and thanks Scott for answering them here!

#26

Dear Thaddeus,

Thank you for sharing your question with the community.
I believe I have answered some things along those lines in my Meet The Thread here on CGTalk before: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=1122801

Please, feel free to take a look at that.

Generally speaking, I would always advise to cater your application to the relevant studio. In live action film visual effects we tend to prefer before and after comparisons to be fully able to judge the level of proficiency in your work. Anything beyond that is mostly specific to the individual position that needs to be filled. You have to fit into the work dynamic and sometimes being stronger at one thing over another, such as 2D vs. 3D, can make all the difference.

Hope this helps in answering your question.

Best Wishes,
Milan

#27

And the winners for December’s challenge are…

1st: Dave Tipper
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=370&t=1239970&page=1&pp=15

David’s comments: You’ve put up a very strong image here in the style of KFP. The colors, the trees, the mountain shapes, the mist, and the classic sunset is all very striking. Congrats on placing 1st this month! Great sense of depth here, and marching of colors into the depth of purples near the horizon, while maintaining the magical “orange sky” that’s so dominant in KFP. I can really see one or all of the characters just sitting on the ground bathing on the sunset together and enjoying it’s sense of serene beauty. The one thing I would tweak is just having a little more green on the far right hand side mountain peak, as it goes into the purples maybe a little too quickly. And then the small guy right below the right hand side of the tree could get a little more purple to it and get just a little more orange sun light on it as it’s not entirely in the shadow of the peak to the right of it. Well done!

Milan’s comments: Your entries are always very artistic and creative. This month you also managed to get the style right and worked well within the given boundaries, while curbing but not limiting your artistic freedom. Well done. The shapes and colours work while you managed to keep your composition interesting. Your lighting could be improved here and there but you have overall found a nice balance. Maybe try to include a touch of warmer light on the leaves, as they appear very cyan at the moment but it’s all a delicate pushing and pulling at this stage. Overall nice achievement. Hope to see more of your work in the coming months.

Scott’s comments: Congratulations Dave! This is a fantastic image that definitely fits into the style and aesthetic of the “Kung Fu Panda” world. The mountain shapes are reminiscent of the Valley of Peace silhouettes. Excellent use of foliage on the"Sugar Loafs" as we call them here at Dreamworks. The repetitive pattern and rows of plants are a signature to the style of the films. It was an influence from the famous artist Eyvind Earle that the production designer really loves.
http://www.eyvindearle.com/
Color palette is great! Composition is well thought balanced and executed.
On that note, I would add more foliage and greenery to the mountains on the back side that are near the sun. They tend to have rock surfaces but only on the shear rock side. Adding a darker subtle value to the far side as a grad will also help the forms turn a bit and give more shape. I actually showed this to a few co-workers of mine (working on KFP3 at the moment) and they were impressed with how well the image would fit in to our films! Well done.

2nd: Ashok Kumar Dass
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=370&t=1240836&page=1&pp=15

David’s comments: Your concept is very vivid, and love that you really saw through to the shapes and color palette through to your end matte painting. Great use of the metablobs in Vue to get the shapes you wanted at first. I can really see Po and Sifu training on this cliff edge here. Great composition of the sloped hill to break up the vertical and horizontal feel of the fog. I think also, the light intensity and saturation on the red vegetation on the bottom left is ok, but the right side FG and especially the mid ground flowers red is getting clipped in saturation value and intensity. Probably take out some saturation a bit or lower the intensity so it’s not so blasted in value. Nice work overall!

Milan’s comments: Congratulations on second place. You have perfectly matched the look and feel of the corresponding original sequence. Your composition is solid and very straight forward, while your shapes work complimentary to the rest of the Panda world. What sticks out to me is something phunky that’s going on with the reds in the mid-ground. I’m not sure how it happened but if your renders came out this way, a Photoshop paint-over could fix the final appearance. Since it’s a still, you can take that even further in a 2D software, touching up elements in order to break the uniform 3D appearance here and there. Be careful not to lose the style which you have so well matched here already. Very strong submission.

Scott’s comments: Congratulations on the beautiful image you’ve created here and receiving 2nd place Ashok! The Dumpling/Chopstick Fight sequence you chose is very special to me and the entire “Kung Fu Panda” Matte Department. This was the first environment that we created for the original film and the first time we had ever used Vue in our workflow! I distinctly remembering Jeffrey Katzenberg’s reaction when he saw this sequence in dailies. He was so excited and made a personal visit to our department to congratulate us on “finding” the look for the entire film and series.
Great to see Vue being used to help execute this environment! Nice use of ecosystems on the metablobs and foreground hill. You really nailed the “brush stroke” texture on the rocks. Bravo! The diagonal clouds in the sky are also distinct to the KFP style and work well directing your eye back to the temple. I would suggest taking this further in Photoshop and refine some of the rock textures. They are a bit procedural looking and could use a natural rock texture pass over them. It would also be good to fill in some of the gaps where the Vue trees separate from the main group. “Draping” the foliage is something we always strive for in these films and reduce the “spotty or sparse” look. Overall a very successful extension of the Kung Fu Panda world!

3rd: Alexey Soroka
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=370&t=1240543&page=1&pp=15

David’s comments: Having a gigantic Po statue for his given legendary status and legacy is just such a unique and great idea. I could definitely see something like that in a future KFP movie that is 20-30 years after Po’s time. Great light rays coming in to lead your eye from the left to the bottom of the lake up to Po’s big statue on the right thirds. For your sky, having it more consistent rather than having a few purples then a pocket of blue, then back to saturated purples would be good. can probably go less purple, or less blue, and go more towards a red/orange sunset look that KFP usually has at this time of day. I also think the FG right hand side wooden pole could be played down more and just be silhouetted how you had it before, but have the background of it more lit to bring out the shape, and maybe some of the grass below instead. The intensity and saturation of it maybe leading the eye too much away. Congrats on third place this month!

Milan’s comments: The main thing I would recommend you to pay attention to is colour unity. As I see, you have started to address this issue since David’s feedback by adding purple and contrast to your image. I think the franchise does not really have many blue skies though. Make sure to keep playing off light against dark to pop focus points. Do not wash out your image while trying to fix it now. That said, you must unify it by having the same colours bounce around in the foreground, as to what you see in the background. If that means replacing the sky it might be worth a try. Either way, make sure you don’t end up with a too narrow colour palette. Animation tends to have a broader range than live action. Keep at it and this will potentially be a nice portfolio piece in your gallery.

Scott’s comments: Bravo and congratulations on receiving 3rd place Alexey! Interesting concept adding this Po statue to the environment. I wonder how Shifu would feel about it though :wink: Po is after all the “Dragon Warrior” and worthy but Shifu may be a bit jealous!
I agree with David and Milan’s previous comments about the color palette. The big one note that Milan mentioned is changing out the blue sky. One of the signature styles of the films are unique colored skies that are not found in nature and have significance to the film. The golden sky in the Dumpling/Chopstick is important color for Po and his personal growth (heroic color). The mist fog could use some refining and appears a bit air brushy here and there. Denser fog shapes are important in Panda and allow the “lost and found” of mountain edges. We tend to use cloud photography and then squash them and paint on top to create the fog shapes. This way they look “painted” but retain realistic edge quality and density. Well done my friend!

Honorable Mention: Nikolay Razuev
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=370&t=1243124

David’s comments: So many strong entries this month, it was really hard to choose for all of us, congrats on the honorable mention here. Really great poses for Po, and even though you didn’t have to animate anything, the breakdown was nice for your dmp here. Also the Oogway theme always pulls my heart’s strings, I miss him! Lovely dusk colors, with a red moon reflecting the light from the surface of the planet. I like your silhouetted mountain shapes and pockets of mist between them. At this time of day though, I think they could go a little darker, and a little more of the orange, that the moon would be reflecting back on the ground, in some parts that’s not occluded. Po’s rock below him and the tree is definitely in the style of KFP.

Milan’s comments: This is the first time all judges found it necessary to include an honourable mention. Your final image is wonderful, and as a stand-alone piece, a great achievement. The main reason you did not rank higher is that you have gone somewhat beyond the premiss of the movie reference in terms of realism. The set style could however be respected by painting a bit over your current textures and bringing it back into a more feature animation world. That said, I enjoy your painting very much the way it is now. Good job. As for other improvements, I might want to add a lighting note concerning the light wrap around the silhouettes of the cut-out mountains. They currently feel too flat. You can infuse some dimension into your layers by treating the elements more spherical. Make them a bit brighter towards the outside in order to mimic the way the moonlight would be caught on the receding surface. Keep it up.

Scott’s comments: Congrats on the honorable mention for the DMP Challenge Nikolay! Your image is very compelling and nicely composed. Impressive animation also. You really went above and beyond with it. This would work well if we created a live action version of “Kung Fu Panda” :slight_smile: But as a environment in the film it definitely is too realistic and photographic. The palette is too de-saturated and mono-chromatic. Although this is what we strive for in Visual Effects, it needs to move away from that for animation. It definitely is a challenge to set aside those inclinations for the animated look. Trust me I know! Jumping from one to the other, Kung Fu Panda to Avatar, is not always easy. This is an excellent image on it’s own merit! Excellente!

The winners will be getting:

1st Prize: 1 x CGWorkshop, 1 xCGTOD, 1 x Ballistic Book of Choice, 1 Year of CGSConnect Membership
2nd Prize: 1x CGTOD, 1 x Ballistic Book of Choice, 1 Year of CGSConnect Membership
3rd Prize: 1 x Ballistic Book of Choice, 1 Year of CGSConnect Membership
Honorable Mention: 1 Year of CGSConnect Membership

Thank you again to Scott from Milan and I for being apart of December’s challenge. You can catch his CGWorkshop, Matte Painting with Vue, starting next week if you haven’t signed up yet. It’s a fantastic chance to learn grow as an artist and learn more directly from Scott! Limited seats remaining!! http://training.cgsociety.org/course/matte-painting-with-vue

#28

Congrats to all three winners and the honorable mention. Great work from everyone, this month challenge has lots of strong entries. :applause:

#29

Thanks a lot David for Honorable Mention!
I’m very excited for attention to my work. It gives strength and confidence. Thank you!
Your comments and Milan’s and Scott’s comments are themselves valuable prize.
I congratulate all three winners!!! :thumbsup:

#30

CONGRATULATIONS ! :applause: :bowdown:

#31

Huge congratz guys, massive well done! :smiley:

#32

Congratulations to the winners and honorable mentioned - very good work!

Regards
Jonatan

#33

Congratulations to the winners, I wasn’t able to follow this months challenge as closely as I would have liked, but the final results have been great, well done guys.