Creativity Extension for 3ds Max 2009

#41

It has a seperate help file with additional info and a few tutorials.
Help > Additional Help > Creativity Extension.

-Eric

#42

Hey Cliff, the install puts some files in the Tutorials folder(under program files…), illustrating PFlow lock bond with particles flying off past thresholds, an example with sound and swords, PF texturing, growing hair with particles, etc…

-Shea

#43

Thanks guys, found them… Love the additional PF operators.

#44

Yes, the tutorials are copy directly from Particle Flow Toolbox #1 :slight_smile:

I can’t tell the difference

#45

Yeah, but unfortunately, I/we never bought Box1, so this is a boon to me.

#46

Oleg is currently writing this as PFTools Box2.

#47

Ach… quatruple sigh!

It’s like groundhog day! After the productivivty booster we get the creativity estension… What’s next? The stupidity enhancement or the crapidity addition?

After having installed the “unneedity extension” my Max keeps crashing when starting first. The next time i start it, it works! Great work dev team! In my language we have a word which would be translated as “malproved”!

Well, “Ken Pimental of Autodesk”, your secret presentation at sigraph better be good, or the masses will tremble. What is creative about reducing the number of my polygons?.. What is creative in adding more than 1 audio track to max?
Every … and i mean every max user has at least one small video app, where he can mix down more than one soundtrack. And how many archviz or gamemodellers did use Particle Flow more than once a year. Raise you hand!.. Ok… 1,2,3,…20… That’s
not that much! :slight_smile:

I mean… who is making the suggestions at Autodesk to buy third party plugins?.. Are your telling me that “Prosound” or “Soundtrax” was cheaper than “orionflame” or “polyspeed”??? and what about a 3Dpaint plugin like “Deep Paint” from Right Hemisphere or a car rig plugin like vehicle simulator or or or or or or ?

Now in max i have 2 boolean plugins which are both working far from perfect, having 2 Polygon reducing tools which perhaps will give the same result! Well, Well, well!

Every year we are discussing the same “poop” here…and Ken’s answer is, the key industrie and the game developers asked for this and that… well pretty fine… these are the guys who have the money to buy every plugin they need.

Well let me make a nice addition:

Polygon Cruncher for Max…129 $
Boomer Labs Soundtrax 250 $
Particle Flow Tool Box 195 $
Total 574 $
Which is 365 €

I paid about 490 € for my subscription… were is my benefit?

Not regading the fact that i never would have bought these plugins in the first place, because i don’t need them. And i doubt a lot of users would have. You know what i would call that… hushing the subscriptioniers…

What about all your promises you dev team is working on something great… they better be, or we will beat the cr*!?## out of them.

I quote:
KEN: 07-25-2008 … Also, while we won’t release a new version at SIGGRAPH, we still will have an announcement or two.However, don’t expect it to be earth-shattering, fairly incremental - but we hope you are pleased.

… some people may be … i am not!

Ken… same day!

“I was as clear as I think I can be. I’m restricted in how I phrase and communicate things, I’d like to say more (much, much more) but I do what I can.”

Well Ken… great timing!.. Do you talk at Autodesk?.. The same day the creativity Extension was released on the AD Website…!

[i]Ken on 07-29-2008

“We know what we have to prove to our core VFX users. We just think we’ve got the proof too, though we can’t elaborate. 3ds Max is the number one professional 3D tool in the world, with 300,000 users and 500 industries,” [/i]

I start to think you are setting your goals in the wrong direction. You are perhaps pleasing some game companies, but you are keeping the broad masses unsatisfied.

Quote: “we struggle to make sure each customer base relates strongly to “their” 3ds Max. We haven’t perfected this, but we’re working on it.”

No you are not, because you are not listening to them.

Quote: “Our big announcement was the Creativity Extension. There may be another one, but it is looking dicey in time for SIGGRAPH. Of course, Autodesk will have plenty of announcements other than 3ds Max.”

Great to hear that in a Max forum, that we are not “that” important.

“Searching for the positive must one look, searching for the negative must lead one to the dark force.” Obi-one-kenobi quote.

Yeah well… may be… but Darth Vader ended the republic quite quickly… didn’t he?

And if the software i use has “bad karma” … i don’t care as long as it is better than other software and it doesn’t crashes to often… and i won’t end up being “Banta podoo!” :))

I still have hope that AD is coming up with something “really really really great” within the next years… that keeps me staying to my subscription.

#48

I’m sure you’re upset with whatever happened do the install. We haven’t had any other reports of the problem, but you should log a bug about it so that we can possibly contact you to track down the issue. We definitely want to jump on anything that we see affecting the community.

Sorry you don’t find enough value in the extension, lots of people do, you often don’t see their voices here, but the feedback has been very positive so far.

Yes, everyone expects their favorite problem to be tackled first, we obviously didn’t hit yours. Maybe you should prioritize the top 5 things you’d like us to do? Ranting is OK as an emotional release, but it honestly doesn’t provide any direction for us. If you want us to listen, you should probably do 50% rant and 50% “here’s the top things I need”. There’s a random chance we’re listening…

#49

captain brainiac, I agree with you.

#50

Come on Ken!..no i am not just ranting nor am i just upset.

For years now you are promising and promising to do better and you are doing not.

You have to be blind not seing the requests and needs of the users here. It is a case of modeling, modeling, modeling and modeling.

Without a model there is no lighting and texturing and rendering and FX. Sure there is more, but basically it always comes to modeling. If it is nurbs or splines, poly, meshes…
Max needs improvement in every single part. Not mentioning reactor or material editor.

Adding tools like in Modo, or in Mudbox… Come on… you are the market leader. If you can by Mudbox, why not modo too. And in case of Mudbox, i can see the dollar bills in the eyes of your management. Instead of integrating it into Max or Maya, you start another product line. The Investement has to pay off. And “we will calm down the max and maya users in another way”.

And isn’t there a way to join or weld two polygons together… i found myself deleting and and creating a new one. Please don’t tell me, no one ever did come up with this. Please, we are in version 11. Eleven! in words. Well may be i was to stupid again and/or modeling 4 am wasn’t such a good idea. … :wink:

Max is the most sold 3d-Software… well, that doesn’t mean it’s the best…

The modeling improvements during the last years were marginal. A few polytools like bridge
or the still quite basic paint tool were the breadcrumbs that we got.

Meanwhile Mudbox and Modo were developed… ! If your main head dev guy would have raised his head out of some margaritas and would left his surfboard in the cupboard, he would have seen all these new features and tools coming.!

I don’t believe this… .don’t you do any research or polls?
Polyspeed is in version 4…and i doubt it’s technology is patented! So give us it’s functionality.

If you would enhance modeling tools, i bet 80 % of all users would benefit of this. I touched the “ring” and “row” selection in 3dsmax a hundred times, and it never worked for me. Just an example.

I bet you yourself used “Microsoft Powerpoint” more often than 3dsmax. As far as i know the business you are a salesman and not a user. You depend on users telling you what they need. And you depend of your developers telling you that what they did was really good. To tell you a secret… it isn’t always that way.

I repeat myself, you have to be blind to not see, that the Max development regarding innovations during the last yours is satisfying only very few people. And your comment that there is a chance that you would listen to us is quite redundant… because you don’t!

Well, it may be, that a lot of people are telling you that the creativity extension is good, but ask them if it is useful, or if they will need it in the near future…well i doubt you will get much positive answers.

The Last 3 years i only hear excuses… here and on your blog…

  1. The trouble with the productivity booster on Max 9, trouble with service pack and more… sorry sorry sorry

  2. The trouble for users having bought Max 2008, finding themselves Binaries and plugins outdated with version 2009… well tough luck

  3. The tutorial videos of Max2009 being crap…speaker and/or sound!.. we promise to do better… well i am waiting … never heard of new ones.

  4. The lack of documentation of key features in Max2009 … still no news

  5. The lots and lots of trouble with the video drivers in Max2009… you stabled the core and weakend the viewports … that’s (another proverb) a choice between pest and cholera. Ending up with a recommendation of disabling the viewcube!

  6. An “creativity extension” which never ever someone here on CGtalk asked for. I can’t remember someone ever asking for more soundtracks in 3dsmax, a better polygon reducing tool, or more tools for Particle Flow.

  7. Why on earth can’t you combine your user database with an information tool, that tells me, that there is something new for me on the subscrioption page.
    This is just really really sad. If i can’t expect a good communication policy from the market leader… well!.. I rest my case!

  8. How many people are coming to see your new enhancements at sigraph this year 100?.. or 200? out of 300.000… If you choose them wisely, you will end up getting cheers and hoorays… but we here are the silent majority, which has no voice in the
    future decisions. Sad, very sad again.

I understand that you are just doing your job, Ken. And you are doing it quite well. I bet there are not a lot of product managers who have the guts to join a quite critical board like this one on cg-talk. But you have to sell what your company is developing… and i am not satisfied with it. And you have to admit honestly that i am not the only one her on the board

Kind regards
Tom

#51

You guys really need to realize that Ken can only say what he is allowed to say. I doubt he is willing to give up his job for you, especially with the way you guys have been posting some stuff. I am sure he would like to tell everyone everything he knows so wouldn’t complain as much, but again is it really worth giving up everything?

Well let me make a nice addition:

Polygon Cruncher for Max…129 $
Boomer Labs Soundtrax 250 $
Particle Flow Tool Box 195 $
Total 574 $
You forgot the $895 to upgrade to 2009 from 2008. You also didn’t include the eLearning videos, that depending on how long you have been on Subscription is 18 DVDs worth of material at $29.99 each to buy independentally.

I will have to agree with Ken that ranting does nothing. I have been part of various product betas for multiple companies, not because I bitch and complain, but because I showed them the reproducable issue and wanted to work with them to get the resolution.

I will agree with the fact that the product is not going in the direction I want at this time, but neither are the other programs. If the other programs were I would be using them. I also realize that serious change takes time and atleast Ken is coming here and facing you rather than not responding so give the guy credit for that. He also deserves a little respect, because I doubt any of us here could handle his job.

All I can say is if you aren’t happy then find a product that makes you happy, but also remember that the grass isn’t always greener on the other side.

-Eric

#52

Yes actually you are ranting and you do seem a bit upset.

I am actually embarrassed to be on the same forum, using the same program as you. I have made a living off this product for over 10 years and am still doing so. I guess I come from the generation that believed that hard work was a virtue and to do your job well should require you to use your brain. Yeah 3ds max doesn’t have a one button solution to every need I have, but it is dang powerful. 3ds max has come ALONG way since R1 and has made a lot of people a decent living. There are some things that it cannot do, but thankfully there are other apps available that do these things. There have been some amazing things made using this product and most of those people did so by working hard and figuring out how to go further with it. I am not saying it is the best application out there (I honestly don’t know where it truly ranks) but it and the company developing it do not deserve the crap they get from these forums over this product. It is quite immature and is done for nothing more than the sake of being seen and read by others here on this particular site. Every new revision of 3ds max has had benefits to the users who chose to take advantage of them (even the recent ones, speed benefits all).

As for Autodesk not listening…
They whine about speed, we get speed
They whine about large scenes, we get larger scene speed/stability
They whine about too much focus on design vis, we get updates to particle flow.

It is abundantly clear that you guys have no intention of being satisfied and that all you care to do is bitch. I do not work for Autodesk, but if I did I would probably not come to this site and read what people have to say.

No offense to CGTalk, it is not this sites fault that it is used as a platform to spew ill intent, and sorry for contributing to the ranting.

funny

#53

For my knowleage, Autodesk constantly encourge us to give feedback to them, like giveing whishlist to the new version of Max.

For there are so many wishlist features waiting to be put into new version of Max, what I don’t know is how Autodesk weighting those wanted features?

I mean, you have wishlist like 1. Node-based Material Editor 2. More Particle Flow Operators 3. Fluid simulation 4. Texture Painting tools…etc

How Autodesk set priority of those? For some people need item one more, while other want item two…?

Can Autodesk creat a open wishlist databese (or a bug report database) for all 3dsmax users, and a public poll so we can have opertunity to decide what put in next version of Max?

#54

And are these actually being logged with Autodesk by passing them through official Autodesk channels like through your reseller or through and Autodesk representative? Or are you refering to the ones that popup every year when someone thinks a new release is coming where someone always chimes in about knowing about what is going to be in it, and in the end are almost always wrong?

I mean, you have wishlist like 1. Node-based Material Editor 2. More Particle Flow Operators 3. Fluid simulation 4. Texture Painting tools…etc

  1. From the info Ken has gotten and I have read alot of Game companies and Arch/Viz don’t want it (However, it along with my wish for a unified schematic view has been sent to Autodesk every chance I can), 2) What does more PFlow Operators mean? I personally have been screaming for box #3 to be built into the Max core (not just particles something like Houdini and XSI ICE), 3) this targets small segment of users IMHO (I would love to have fluids, but would only use them for work on very limited occassions), and 4) this was actually attempted at one point with what was to be known as Paint Studio, but was dropped from the release and has never resurfaced (I have heard various reasons on the issues, but there are other options).

How Autodesk set priority of those? For some people need item one more, while other want item two…?
That is where the problem exists. I do know that Autodesk does send out various surveys to get feedback from a broader range of users.

Can Autodesk creat a open wishlist databese (or a bug report database) for all 3dsmax users, and a public poll so we can have opertunity to decide what put in next version of Max?
Ken has already said they won’t do that again. It was done once and the competition abused it. So that really isn’t Autodesks fault, instead it is the underhanded dealings of the competition.

Don’t feel like you are alone in feeling neglected, I know I am right there with you. Personally I am trying everything I can to get what I need pushed into every release, but if you multiply my request by a few thousand (which is only a small percentage of the total number of seats) and you have to draw the line somewhere. Remember there are 300,000 or so users and if they were making such a large number mad, then you would see a dramatic shift in market share. Which as far as I can tell isn’t happening.

One thing that most users don’t realize (Please lets not turn my statements into the usual international price debate, because this isn’t what it is about) is that as far as I know Max is the only package that hasn’t cut its price in an effort to try and increase their market share. Unlike what I see from alot of people I don’t see a price cut as a healthy move, it usually means you aren’t making the ROI that you expect. If you cut too much then you have to make up the money somewhere, look at Softimage has cut the price on XSI multiple time to the point that they had to increase the price of Essentials $1,000 and drop Foundation.

-Eric

#55

catpain brainiac:

whoa - what a rant !
what did you expect from this years subscription besides the update thing ?
you know a 2008 extension was skipped totally ,
(yes it so GREAT to have 2009 now for the price of a subscription, i here them argueing :wink:
I’was quite surprised (positively) that we even got anything besides, some “great things in the future” announcements. So i think this Extension is a fine thing…
i totally disagree with the uselessness of the three plugs in the recent extension, these are great plugs, but of course: everyone who had the need for them already in the past, would have bought them already back then…

the rest of the rant carries some true things and arguments …
I for myself have made my decision already to drop subscription in fall, with an (unlikely) option for changing my mind after a real whoa siggraph announcment, but i don’T believe in that.
I guess Ken already regrets his apperance here in this thread, but i have to say that it’s totally necessary that he or another official keeps posting on this board…

and PiXeL_MoNKeY:

are you an ADESK employee ?
i NEVER heard you say anything bad about ADESK’s product policy, Max future developments etc… always understanding - always defending… that makes me suspicious…:wink:

#56

I think it is naturally people compare 3ds max with other softwares. They said why A softare have that feature and 3ds max don’t have.

The industry are constantly changing, packages from different companies compete each other, sometime package A beat package B, sometime packpage B beat package A.

If we can quantify improvement of each upgrade of 3ds max, you might find from version 3 to 4, there is a great leap. From 7 to 8 also shows a big differences. But recent upgrade of Max, people I know they are not very satisfied.

And when Softimage relase new version of XSI (especially the ICE), people start to compare XSI with 3ds max AGAIN. They might think why Softimage can make such groundbreaking improvement while Autodesk only try buy third-party plugins?

You see what I mean?

#57

Why? I do have to applaud Ken for sticking in when I think most would have bailed out. But the comments made around here are ridiculous and carry the passion we should expect when discussing some urgent life or death catastrophe, not how pleased or displeased we are with a 3d software. I don’t consider the majority of Autodesk aimed comments on this board to carry any significance to the company or what they really should be concerned with. I am beginning to wonder if we need any response at all from Autodesk on what they decide to do. Their test as to the products they make should be in the form of customers and revenue, not in the form of what is posted on an Internet forum. I guarantee that if they get far enough from what the users want and can use, they will suffer the loss without having to hear about it.

And to ensure you that I am not an Autodesk promotions plant, the things I hear about the companies inner workings are appalling to me. I am really tired of hearing about it and I do not support them in the corporate political ideologies I have heard about, not that it matters to them. But, that has been the case even with the comparatively small companies I have worked at where I got high enough in management to be privy to such things. I personally don’t care what Autodesk says, I want to see what they are doing. And when they reach the point where I feel I will be better off somewhere else, I will go with out so much as a farewell post.

Suspicious of what!!??

#58

i did’nt talk about you and nothing in my post was directed to you

and if you think it all doesn’t matter to discuss anything about companies directions
why aren’t you that consequent and stop posting in threads like this at all ?

#59

it’s a shame we cant see what the extensions will be when deciding to renew subs…I took a chance & went for subs while upgrading but having seen what I get I’m very dissapointed…I never do anything audio related in max,rarely use pflow & already own Polycruncher.
also realy dissapointed to see the ‘new’ polycruncher doesnt have an option to keep quads which is probably the most requested feature of an optimiser(after keeping uv’s intact)

it’s very true that they’ll never please everyone with subs…which is why it’s important to know what we’re getting at purchase time instead of crossing fingers & hoping it includes something worthwhile.

#60

Wow ~ that’s sound like Autodesk was beset by too many customers using 3ds max~

“Hey ken ~ I need Node-based Material Editor”,“Sorry,3ds max is for Game companies and Arch/Viz,please go to use xsi” :wink:

I don’t know why autodesk can’t do something which general user want,or can I say the game and Arch/Viz companies want too less ?I know somebody will say “you can buy nodejoe”,but why autodesk can’t say “please buy soundtrax” ?

In fact,I can’t acceptable one thing that autodesk just buy plugins and put it in,
If some people already buy powerboolean、particle flow box#1、or soundtrax、Polygon Cruncher,what will they think ?
and what was 3ds max develope team did in this year if their new features are just “Buy”

Plugins is a cool feature for max,but Autodesk should not let a plugin be a new feature,that’s very important.

The price is a good point to compare max with xsi,
$1,000 to buy 4 or 5 plugins and some tutorials which may not match you need,or choose the ICE,which one is worth ?