Cinema 4d 11 - projection manager

#3

Theres a great example here …http://www.cineversity.com/tutorials/lesson.asp?tid=1337
VERY promising

#4

can anyone tell us what c4d can do now that we cant do in other apps?

“enhances workflow and makes it easy to create and patch the mattes. Tight integration with Adobe Photoshop and MAXON BodyPaint 3D simplifies editing and manipulating extensive digital mattes and even fully immersive 3D environments.”

…doesnt really explain much.

Cheers
Stefan

#5

I dont think C4D is doing anything that other apps cant (correct me if im wrong), its just the fact that it has been developed and streamlined for a matte painters workflow that makes things much quicker / easier than other apps. I guess the close integration with bodypaint could be a plus, but im not seeing as much benefit for the matte artist there…
As for whether it would be quicker to learn a new app from scratch just for these tools, ill wait to hear the consensus from others before considering that. At the end of the day, more studios still want Maya experience…

Nick

#6

More studios still want maya experiences is right… but thats because maya has been around for along time and studios have built many useful scripts to ease their workflow. Lately i’ve been seeing that studios ask for general 3d experience, not just maya or 3ds. C4D has always been geared to the single user artist making it possible for people like us who don’t belong to big facilities to create fascinating graphics and animations. I’ve been using c4d now for a few years and have loved it. I do have maya experience but I dont prefer using it just because I can get the same results at half the speed then maya. C4D does offer a great Mo-graph module and thats why its been voted number 1 choice for motion graphics. The mattepainting projection is also amazing in c4d, its easy to set up and easy to edit. C4d works the best so far with adobe projects, imo. I can export right to after effects if I want to keeping everything respectivaley (cam, lights) and treat photoshop files as if i was still in photoshop.

Release 11 looks very promising! I can’t wait :slight_smile:

#7

I got to hang out with Steve Matson and Nick Hiatt who both did some great work using C4d on Beowulf. I also sat through a demo on the Projection Man portion of cinema. So I will say it and this comming from the guys that used it that yes its very similar to other packages, however, SPI was using extremely large textures and a large amount of projection cameras. Multiple 16k matte paintings with that were projected from multiple cameras and of course patch cameras as well. Comming from the guys that worked at SPI the shining light the C4d provided was that the shots the expected to break the application at render never did. C4d rendered all in one scene and little if no multipass. Also comming from both Maxon and Steve was that C4d also handles photoshop layers natively, including adjustment layers… so you dont have to bake them in before export. From the demo I watched at Maxon, Projection Man is definately very easy to use and streamlined. I have setup projections in both Nuke and Maya and let me say that Projection Man’s setup is quick and easy, It can also export a patch camera directly to high rez psd with objects broken up into layers making patching a breeze.

Nick Hiatt was telling me that he is definately looking into helping Rythm and Hues to incorporating C4d in their matte pipeline.

At the price point of $895 its the most affordable package with a robust toolset for matte painters.

#8

I’m upgrading Monday Projection man looks well amazing!

#9

Hi Cliff,

Nice review. I work with a few guys who used it at Sony and they said it was a pretty good tool that streamlines the whole process, so looking forward to having a try. Thing i love about cinema 4d is the integration it has with photoshop, plus the renderer just seems sooo much cleaner. And have no doubts, Cinema in becoming a very respectable tool with professionals, granted Maya might have its place but truth be know … no one ACTUALLY likes maya :slight_smile: like shake its just one of those things people feel they have to know and use, shame.

Dave.

#10

Maxon has released a Siggraph demo version of R11, which includes the Projection Man you can play around with:

http://www.maxon.net/pages/download/democ4d_e.php

#11

Camera mapping itself is something most apps can do, and Cinema 4D had the one distinct advantage of being able to also paint in app (as well as better PSD support than most)

So Projecitonman doesn’t even offer any new “capability” over R10.5 in terms of camera projection, its a workflow tool and a huge one at that.

lets take a look at the manual workflow

You already place an obejct in position on your reference image and would like to create a projection.

1)create material
2)load image
3)apply material to object
4)change material projection to camera projection
5)create camera
6)link camera to material tag

Okay so thats your basic projection

In projection man, you right click on your object and choose load bitmap, 6 steps into 1.

now that the camera exists, anytime you want another object to use that same projection you just drag and drop it to that camera, so all the material creation etc is automated. This is even more advantageous if you use layered tiffs or PSD’s as each object can use the same projection and image but with different layers of the same image, so there is the added step of choosing which layers in that image. Stills that would then be 2 steps instead of seven. In a scene with say 20 objects, that’s 40 steps instead of 140, and when your concerned with painting taking out those tedious middle steps makes life a lot easier.

Where it becomes an even bigger time saver is with what are called coverage renders. Often in moving mattes a lot of problems come from when the camera goes too far to the side of an object and reveals stretching, or worse yet, gaps or wholes in a projection. With projection man you can be in your animated camera, scrub to the frame with the most extreme position and choose to do a coverage render to paint over that area. Lets again look at the workflow.

1)create camera
2)Render out current view as PSD or Tiff
3)start photoshop
4)Load image In photoshop
5)Create a new layer
6)Select area around the object you’d like to affect and create a layer mask
7)Paint, clone whatever to cover up that area
8)Save image
9)create material
10)Load image into color or luminance channel
11)load image into alpha channel
12)apply material to object
13)change material projection to camera projection
14)link new camera to material tag

Or

1)right click on object and say coverage render
2)Paint as needed
3)in Projectionman right click and reload texture.

this is even simpler if you are using Bodypaint as its juust create coverage render and paint as needed.

Beyond the much quicker and simpler creation on objects the later on management is a lot easier as well. Adding new objects to an existing projection is as simple add drag and drop of the new object onto the existing texture.

there is also the added benefit of being able to have animated projections. The coverage render can render out each frame, so whether the object is animated or the projection camera, you automatically get the whole sequence.

Its this simple workflow that leads to Sony doing entire 360 degree sequences entirely with matte painting instead of real sets, often using projections that were slices of as small as 5 degrees. It makes the setup process so thoughtless and seamless that you just look at a shot and think I need a new projection and then bam start painting one, instead of going through a huge rigmarole of setup before you even start to think about painting.

It also simplifies the process for those that create a complex matte in Photoshop, already in its separate layers foe each area, like each hill, each tower etc, and easily split those up onto geometry, again without all the process of making materials applying them setting up camera projections etc.

The one click command to send a file back to photoshop for editing is a huge workflow saver too.

#12

by the way two great little things that made it into C4D/BP that didn’t get much attention, is that now you can load photoshop files with adjustment layers or paths. For the moment you still can’t use the adjustment layers or paths in bodypaint, but if you do any edits inside C4D/BP and then save the image you are rest assured that opening the file back in photoshop, the adjustment layers and paths will still be intact and operational. This allows you to go back and fourth without having to flatten those adjustments right away, for a more non destructive workflow.

And as already mentioned both bodypaint and projectionman are in the core package, so no extra modules needed its a pretty dang good price point. But, add in the advanced Render module and you get GI, and more importantly Cineman allowing you to render in three of the most popular renderman renderers or output ribs of your scenes including models, shaders and texture, so easy matte painting workflow and super easy integration into larger studio renderman pipelines. These tw together has already generated a huge interest at Siggraph, not to mention the studios that were interested in projection man before.

#13

sounds very very good tho i guess it will pass a long time until studios decide to get rid of maya…:rolleyes:

#14

Substituting one package over another wouldn’t be an option they’d need to make, it comes down to deciding whether or not to plug it into their existing pipeline …along side existing programs … such as maya. Considering many studios use Cinema 4D for other features such as bodypaint it wouldn’t be such a far stretch.

Oh …edit :rolleyes:

#15

Exactly Everlite. I don’t think Maxon’s even aiming at taking over entire pipelines, but integrating in and utilizing its best assets.

Thees no reason a studio can’t use BP for texturing and Cinema/Projection Man for Mattes but still do other things such as particles or CA in Maya still. That’s mostly how Sony does it. they do a fair bit of modeling in Cinema, but mostly in relation to their mattes.

#16

That makes sense to me.

#17

I know I’m resurrecting and old thread, but as I’m interested in buying Cinema 4D for “digital sets” creation I thought it would be appropriated to post my questions here instead of starting a new thread just for that.
Well, I want to learn 3D and am out in the market for a 3D application. I have no interest in character animation though. My goal is “digital sets” sort of speaking. By that I mean creating matte painting and moving matte paintings, creating 3D cities and buildings, creating 3D environments etc both by use of camera projection and also by modeling it from scratch, meaning real 3D instead of 2.5D which is what camera projection really is. All that would be destined to feature film work so it needs to be photo real or as close to photo real as possible.
So far my attention is on Cinema 4D. What attracted me to it was Projection Man. Then I started researching about it and started hearing how good Project Man is and how easy to learn Cinema 4D is in general.

My question is, I know Cinema 4D seems to be great for matte paintings, specially with Projection Man, but is it also great for making real 3D cities, environments, cars and props (objects in general) and all other 3D besides characters or am I better off with Maya for that? I don’t want to do character animation as I said. I heard when it comes to character animation Maya is better, but is the same true for other 3D like what I described above?
I don’t wish to be employable by the way. I know Maya skills are more sought after but I want it for my own projects and for free lancing.
Thanks.

#18

Cinema 4D is a very rebust tool for creating full 3d environments. However take it from professional experience most CG environments, espeically in film are usually projected mattes simply because of the time it takes to produce and render is far less than that of a fully lit, modelled environment with various shader networks etc … the only time that happens is when you have some big dramatic rollercoaster camera move … which rarely happens.

Dave.

#19

Thanks Dave. So camera projection is what is widely used? I had the impression camera projection was only used and worked for long distance establishing shots with very little movement and that for anything with a little more movement, specially if the movement is more than just in the Z axis or combine axis and for closer shots you needed real 3D because of the lack of real perspective when you move around too much and the lack of detail in closer shots since camera projection is basically like gluing 2d pictures on a bunch of cardboard boxes if you are talking about a city.

Do you use Cinema 4D for your matte paintings and 3D environments?

#20

Yes camera projection is very widely used, more so than the alternative which requires complex shaders, lighting and render time to get right. You’d be surprised how far you can push with camera projections, its very simple to get convincing results. Again it all depends on the requirements of the shot.

I like to use cinema 4D, more so for bodypaint. However most VFX houses tend to use Maya, so the pipeline pretty much dictates what you use … ie for example if you as a freelance artist was working on a 3d scene and they wanted to modify your scene file, they would need the file in the program they use, not the one you choose to you. I think over time Cinema will be used more so in feature work, i hope so, simply because its far more user friendly to matte painters.

If you’re aiming to create environment work for feature films in a high end production facility then you need to get up to speed with Maya, and camera projections. Gnomon has a good DVD on the subject that breaks down the process :slight_smile:

Dave.

#21

Here’s a nice video demoing projection man on Vimeo.

#22

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