CG Gallery voting musings.

#1

Hello,

I’m not 100% sure if this is the correct forum, if it isn’t, sorry, and please be so kind as moving the thread where it belongs.

Well, the reason for my post is this, browsing around on CG Talk I’ve noticed a pattern (I don’t think I’m the only one).
When threads reach an high star count starts what I call ‘the Troll Stampede’: usually in a very short time all the 4 -5 star threads get very low votes. Looks like there are people that go there just to lower artworks’ rating.

Just to be clear, I don’t mind lower ratings at all, so long as they go with constructive criticism about what is wrong and what could be better. But this is systematic, general and with no comments at all.

I have been thinking about what could be done to twart the ‘stampede’ allowing the community to express their opinion whit a vote, here are a couple of ideas, and I’d love to hear what you think on the issue.

  1. Usually this kind of sharpshooters thrive in anonimity, as it has been done in other galleries there could be a list on each thread saying ‘this thread has been voted by…’ listing the members names (not what each has voted, just the user ID).

or, possibly easier:

  1. Change the voting from a 1-5 grading system to a simple vote/don’t vote and change the rules for consideration of CG Award so that, to be considered, a piece has to have a minimum of 1000 view and X amount of votes.

In this way, those who appreciate the piece could vote and give nuances through comments,(and the same for people who legitimately don’t like a piece and have constructive griticism to give) while sharpshooters would be disarmed, not having any way to ‘take away’ from other members.

What do you think?

#2

I see what you mean Tiziano I had the same reflection . I think it’s around One year like that .
I guess the name of the people would be a good solution may be like in cg Gallery , people who don’t like don’t vote you 've got a lot of vote when they like and nothing when they don’t .

#3

I have my thoughts about the whole star-rated system, if you ask me. This is one of the reasons why. Also it seems that those who need the most input get none and the 4/5 star rated threads are full with ‘amazing’ or ‘awesome work!’ comments.

#4

I’ve noticed what you are talking about too. Nothing ever has 5 stars for long because of it, even if 5 stars is what it deserves.
I’ve also noticed what seems to be a bias toward character pieces in the awards gallery. Of the 25 on the front page now, only 6 are not character based. Most of the figures are humanoid as well.
I’m not saying these aren’t amazing pieces of art, but I wonder why that is. It seems that it would be impossible to get an architectural visualization into the awards gallery even if it was the most amazingly perfect vis ever. :shrug:

#5

Also noticed it, but thought I was being subjective and biased. Apparently I’m not the only one who saw this.

I think that having a “thumbs up” vote with the vote count next to it would suffice and give more accurate indication.

#6

This discussion arises regularly and never really solves anything. Which ever way you do these things, you always leave them open to abuse by users. I personally don’t pay much attention to the star rating, but I doubt any other method would work much better and be more representative of quality.

The star rating also doesn’t correspond directly to the cg choice awards, we consider everything with a three star rating and above (and enough views), and I doubt it’s very often that the trolling would cause an exceptional piece to fall below three stars?

With regards to bias towards character art, I can only speak for myself, but we wade through heaps of images, and what I would or wouldn’t vote for has more to do with what stands out from the rest, than what the actual subject is. I for one would LOVE to see more outstanding non-character art, but to me it seems that while there is a lot of stuff that’s technically correct, only a very small fraction of pieces stand out, or have something special that would make me vote for them.

#7

Hey Carina,
“This discussion arises regularly and never really solves anything.”
There’s obviously a problem here then. I think a positive accumulated voting system, as proposed earlier in this thread, can not be abused by users.

The starring system isn’t all that important to me either, but if it can be improved and be made more quality conveying it might change the weight I give it.

#8

I doubt it would arise less regularly if another system was used. A positively accumulated voting system has been discussed in detail on other occasions, but it comes with its own drawbacks, and it wouldn’t magically turn into “the best pieces getting the highest votes”.

#9

I think what you’re seeing is an adjustment trend spurred on by overrating. What I notice, when I see a work that is obviously 3 or less star level getting 4 and 5 stars, is there are usually 1 or 2 votes on it. Someone is more likely to vote on a work they personally really like and less likely to vote on a work that does not impress them. I don’t think the adjustment ‘stampede’ is a bad thing. It keeps things real. The more votes accumulated, the more unbiased the results, comments or not. In the end the mods do a good job with their final say for the Choice gallery, with a few exceptions on rare occasions. :wink:

#10

That is a part of it, of course, and when a piece gets an average of 30 votes or so it definitely averages out. I doubt, though, that all the four stars on the first page needs to be taked down a few steps every time :).

It is the sistematicity of the matter and the absolute lack of comments linked to the low votes that I find irking, not the votes per se, there’s also a such thing as preventive high voting, since ‘it will be taken down anyway’.

That said, I’m not contesting CG Choices or the moderators’ work in any way, I know that the star rating isn’t that important in that respect since it’s extremely difficult that a good work goes under the three full stars, but, in a way, since the rating is there that simple fact makes it psychologically significant, if you pass me the expression.

#11

What if you’ll only be able to vote if you post a comment?

#12

I’d be all for that.

#13

Ze Starshooters

#14

And show what his or her vote is. I asume we aren’t afraid to show what kind of rating we give it?

#15

Actually, I can’t personally think of anything worse… IMHO there is already too many “omg you’re awesome” comments in the galleries. I generally wish people would refrain from commenting unless they had anything new to say.

And actually, I think that would mean the votes would be biased even more towards fanboyism. Often no one really bothers commenting on the lesser quality images, so we’d just end up with those not getting a star rating at all, whereas the better quality stuff would be even more littered with nonsense.

#16

Then why not to do away with the voting system at all? If in any case it’s going to be biased one way or another, personally I’d rather prefer comments only.

Besides there seem to be a bit of diferent opinions on what the stars really mean: I’ve seen a few posts from ‘old hands’ who considered any star at all a ‘better than average’ vote, while other people seem to consider ‘no star’ as terrible, one star as ‘bad’ and so on (given that consideration for CG Choices is given for 3 full stars, my guess is that the first interpretation is nearer to the mark).

I know when I first joined I looked for a sort of rating guide and I couldn’t find one, if the voting system is going to stay as it is (as it would seem likely at this point) could we have a sticky somewhere with the ‘canon’ interpretation of the star rating? It would at least clear the possibility of confusion.

#17

I don’t see that happening. A truly strong 4.n star work that starts out with a few 4-star votes will usually maintain a 4-star status (3.5 ~ 4.49 star average). Personally, I think the problem with the voting system is with the overall juvenile voting atmosphere (which would support your initial argument). If you throw some blood on your character you’re sure to garner an extra star. I think a lot of work gets overrated as a result of this atmosphere; hence the mods have the final say.
I rarely see work that I think should have been given a higher rating, though the opposite is common.
––
Opeth—“What if you’ll only be able to vote if you post a comment?”

No problem. You can have two common responses instead of one. ‘OMG that’s awesome!’ and ‘Your work shows potential but needs improvement globally.’
––
Here’s my star legend for further musings:
No stars = How did that get in here anyway?
1 star = Below average
2 stars = Average
3 stars = Above average
4 stars = Exceptional (OMG that’s awesome)
5 stars = Excellent (truly ‘Gold Medal’ caliber, and very rare)

#18

But this happens anyway, people that do that now will be doing that regardless. Having to be able to vote only if you make a comment (maybe with a word count minimum to keep those OMG your work is awesome folks away) helps for those trolls that go around giving 1 star to people just for the hell of it. I do not care about the star rating, I did once upon a time (specially when I was unemployed) so I understand why some folks care, we all like to be recognized by our peers, unfortunately there are people that are jealous of other artists and hide behind the internet anonymity curtain.

I don’t really like to see how a person voted but I do want to see some sort of accountabilty to keep 1 star voters and fanboys down. You know, if the star system was gone tomorrow I wouldn’t miss it one bit.

#19

Definitely seconded.

#20

I’m not saying this wouldn’t be one way of doing it, but personally I don’t like it at all. It does let the people who’ve all the time in the world to comment elaborately on works to comment and vote to their hearts content, but if someone has already summed up what you would have liked to say, what are you going to post? “me too” * 20 to meet the minimum word count, just to be allowed to rate it?

You’ll also find that a lot of the people who vote, and seriously vote based on what they think the image is worth, just don’t have the time to sit down and write elaborate comments about an image that catches their attention. Yes it will block out some of the fanboy-ism but at the same time it will cause a lot of serious users not to vote/comment at all.

I wouldn’t miss the star system (as I said before I don’t really pay any attention to it). But if it was taken away and/or replaced by something else, there would be some flaw in that, and we’d be back to this discussion. Eventually someone would suggest a star-system, and round round we go.

I’m not saying that this isn’t a valid discussion to have, the problem is that there’s no easy solution.