The first link in the post above doesn’t always work (the server must try and prohibit linking), so try this link as an alternate for the image: (it’s one of the best shots)
Author Jack Vance's stories: "Planet of Adventure" or "Demon Princes"
Geuse
#86
Hi again. been practicing some more and feel I’m making some progress even if it’s slow.
So here’s another take on zap. Tried to take the references into account, so tell me what you think.
Bryan_Y
#87
She looks too sci-fi, in a way. She’s too futuristic. And the cloak really should be covering her in the front, as though you drop it over your head, maybe down to about knee length. The shoes should probably be small black form fitting slippers that barely cover her ankles, if at all. Her legs should be bare.
And I have to emphasize the broad brimmed black hat, which is the most important thing of all. And the cloak should be black. Fairly simple and black.
Getting frustrated yet? I can imagine it’s tough to envision what I describe. Sometimes things that are obvious to me I probably leave out - like the shoes or bare legs.
But the black hat! I want to see the black hat. Without the black hat, she’s nothing.
How are the books? Have you started reading them.
Geuse
#88
Ugh! =)
Ok, I’ll make the cape black and get rid of the centerpiece. Should I also shorten it?
Reason to why I had it open is to show the cape and her clothing underneath or what was going to be the clothing underneath. It’s just white for now just to establish an idea and get some input from you. What about the hood, keep or get rid off? You really want this hat, then I’ll add it.
So I’ll be adding slippers and bare legs. what is she wearing udnerneath her cloak?
Underpants perhaps and some kind of women’s undershirt?
weapons or gears? utility belt?
I have a vision of the World Jack Vance describes, but since they were written long ago I felt like making some modifications to the clothing and character designs while still being true to the story and the races, but if you solely prefer to make it as true to the words of Jack Vance as possible that is fine.
Yes I’ve started reading, but there are alot of words I don’t understand as the dictionary I use doesn’t contain them.
but as far as I’ve understood, he’s fled from the dirdir men with the young boy,Traz and then come to a caravan moving through the landscape. He then encountered Ylin-Ylan which he set free, but later was brought back to her former masters(some ugly manly females?). So anyway they’ve been resting at an inn, inside a small city with chasch men surronding them.
I’m afraid I’m having problems separating the different races from each other, but so far I like the book.
Bryan_Y
#89
The thing about the black hat: if you really understood where she comes from, you’d understand the black hat. It’s not really something subject to much interpretation. She wears a broad brimmed black hat due to cultural requirements.
With regard to the human inhabitants of Tschai, they really aren’t futuristic or contemporary at all - yes, they are familiar with modern technologies because they exist with regard to the alien cultures, but that is all.
With regard to some difficult words - are you referring to words such as: bellicose, perfunctory, punctilio, peremptory, concordance, obstreperous, avarice, adjudicate, and words like that? These are the bread and butter of Vance novels - there are actually a few books written on the subject of Vance’s writing style.
Everyone except the main (good) characters in a Vance novel are knaves, scoundrels, thieves, cutthroats, murderers, swindlers and con-artists. And even a peasant on the steppes might say something like “Perhaps we could arrive at some type of concordance” after he openly tries to rob you and stick a knife through you. Notice how indifferent the caravan driver is to the crimes which occur outside of his caravan? He is entirely self serving - he could care less who robs whom, so long as it does not cause him any inconvenience.
There really should be minimal modernization to Vance’s world. If you want modern worlds, read The Demon Princes.
Traz and Adam fled from the Emblem Men, not the Dirdirmen. There really were no Dirdermen, except for Anacho, who is hanging out with Traz and Adam. However, in the very beginning of the novel. there were Dirdir, an alien race inspecting Reith’s spacecraft.
There are Blue and Green Chasch, as well as Old Chasch. That’s three alien races of similar descent. There are Dirdir, which are another alien race. There are Dirdirmen, of which Anacho is one, but he is now a fugitive. There are Pnume, an alien race native to Tschai, and Phung, an alien race native to Tschai, and they are similar to Pnume. There are Pnumekin, men who are subservient to Pnume as Dirdirmen are subservient to Dirdir. There are also Chaschmen, and they are subservient to Chasch. There are Wankh and Wankhmen, and some Brits take offense at that, as it sounds like wank, which of course is contemporary British slang, and to some extent, American slang as well. I never gave the term a second thought when reading the books, but some have. In a special reprint, Vance felt compelled to rename the Wankh to Wannek after being pestered by a some people.
You should’ve already encountered a Phung, as one tried attacking Anacho. Go back and carefully read the last paragraph on page 52. It should describe the Phung. Read closely what he is wearing. Read the next paragraph on page 53 where Reith examines him in his scanscope. This is a frightful creature. There is a lot of imagery here. And his wardrobe is very iconic and original for an alien species. Bottomline: you cannot tinker too much with Vance’s imagination - it is unique and because of that, it makes for original material. You do not want to change these characters into the cliched science fiction stuff we see today.
Anyway, the Phung then throws pebbles at Anacho! This creature is mischievious. This is classic Vance.
Try dictionary.com for word definitions. It enriches the reading experience for Vance novels.
Bryan_Y
#90
I guess what I’m saying is you really need to savor what Vance his writing. Go back and reread your favorite scenes. His novels don’t need updating. To update them would be to destroy the distinct flavor that these novels have. This project is worth doing precisely because of the nature of Vance’s characters, imagery and the worlds they inhabit.
Also, now that you’re starting to read, I’d love to hear your take on some of the favorite scenes you’ve encountered so far. Of what you’ve read so far, I’ve mentioned one of mine - the Phung.
Also, earlier I mentioned how everyone is a swindler, cheat or murderer. You’ve seen that in the caravan driver, the priestesses, and you also saw it in the Emblem men shamans and the Emblem man Reith fought.
And even the good guys - look at Traz, he’s basically good, and yet the culture of Tschai dictates to him that the simple solution was to simply kill Anacho rather than deal with him before they befriended him.
Pay close attention to how the characters negotiate and bargain - you’ll notice how it’s standard to try and rip everyone off.
If you want, post the weird words you encounter here - I’ll define them if I can.
Geuse
#91
ok, thanks alot! =)
I see your point. It’s just seems hard, but I’ll try my best continuing the concept art.
What are your thoughts of Zap 210 of what I wrote in my last post?
I need all details you have on these characters. Maybe you could also try to sketch yourself or maybe trying to find some images like you already have been doing to describe more of this characters features etc. Cause I find it extremely hard to get a full grasp of what you envision, but I’ll continue reading.
The sword the emblem men use for instance, my interpretation is that it looks like close to this but with the form of a stingray’s tail as it’s blade.
And of course yes, they were tribesmen/emblem men. and anacho’s of course a dirdir man.
One word I recall by others, is “dray”. Don’t remember in what sentence but it had to do with the caravan or the wagons I think.
Bryan_Y
#92
I wouldn’t worry right now about what she’s wearing underneath because you can’t see what’s underneath. The cloak alone covers her from neck to knee, front and back. She has no weapons, no gadgets.
You might want to read this: [b][Jack Vance: Lord of Language](http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/jvprofile.htm)[/b].
Here's a [b][comic book](http://www.bedetheque.com/serie-471-BD-Cycle-de-Tschai-%28Le%29.html)[/b] of Planet of Adventure.
On the cover of this book we see someone’s interpretation of a Pnume.
Here is the artwork for the Underwood Miller publications of Vance’s works.
Here is more artwork.
More Tschai artwork.
And more.
And the artwork for a role playing game based on Planet of Adventure.
Somebody’s interpretation of Green Chasch.
A dray out on the Dead Steppes of Tschai (obviously a montage, since we know the Chasch are human sized).
An elegant vessel in Showboat World.
A Pnume and Zap (again, obviously a montage, since we know Pnume are human sized).
Here is some really really awesome artwork depicting settings that are typical of Vance’s world. Although Night Lamp doesn’t have anything to do with Tschai, the image really captures the spirit of some of the cities you might later visit on Tschai.
Of course, all of this stuff is open to interpretation, but there are details in Vance's prose that should be followed. Try not to let too much of the above linked artwork to influence your own imagination and vision.
Regarding the Emblem Men, I think of them as barbaric warriors from the past history of some country like Turkey. I definitely know that Reith's rapier comes from an Emblem Men though, and rapiers are not that barbaric - being a more modern sword from the Rennaissance era.
Since you are reading the books now, I'd love to engage in further discussion with you on how you visualize the material.
Bryan_Y
#93
The Vance Integral Edition has some 19th century style illustrations (one illustration per Vance volume). Here are some:
From Throy. From Ecce and Old Earth. From The Blue World. From The Star King (first volume of The Demon Princes. From The Killing Machine (second volume of The Demon Princes. By the way, that last image is from a scene in The Demon Princes that I was thinking of doing. From Cugel the Clever. From Trullion. From Ports of Call. From Emphyrio.
All those above linked images of course are very stylistic. They’re fun to look at though.
Here are the book covers to the Vance Integral edition. Some assorted artwork from said volumes.
Geuse
#94
Ok, so here’s the latest update with your adjustments in mind.
Feel free to do any paint over on these sketches. Makes it easier for me to see what you have in mind, or maybe if you find the time to cut and paste from photos to build a general image of zap or any of the other. Cause when describing in written, it seems I constantly misinterpret your intensions, so I think it’s easier this way, when discussing features, clothing etc.
As for the pictures you linked to. To me, the comics seem a little to futuristic in it’s style than I feel you had in mind, or is this truly what you had in mind?
ps. You forgot to explain the word “DRAY”.
Bryan_Y
#95
I think that’s pretty good. To further refine it, I think the cloak needs sleeves, probably down to about mid forearm. The shoes are pretty good. The hat brim could be a little more floppy and/or curved.
Definition of dray at dictionary.com.
Also, one of the links about two posts back shows a cover to the book with a dray on the front.
If I get a chance to do some sketches, annotations, etc. I will. Thanks for what you’re doing. Now that you’re reading the book though, I think you can focus on stuff that you’ve already read. Tell me your thoughts on what scenes you like, or what objects/characters you might be interested in developing.
Are you sure the comics look more futuristic that what I’ve been talking about? Look at the pictures of Reith in that first comic image. It’s almost exactly like your sketch - and you did the sketch before I even saw the comics!
Geuse
#96
it was more the style of the characters and garments which struck me as more futuristic than I think you intended, or maybe it’s just me, but it’s good to have seen that comic so I know how others interpret the world.
I probalby do something more to her flip-flops etc, but you want the forms to be very simple, right?
Not too much detailing like patterns in garments or extra accessories.
On chosing a scene
I like the beginning when the explorator II is destroyed and they fly in, in their smaller space shuttle, to when his partner is executed, and he is left alone hanging in the trees. But this might be a bit to massive. Otherwise I like when they encounter the dirdir man and the pnume attacks them(if that’s a scene you intended).
Bryan_Y
#97
With regard to all clothing for all characters, there is the almost certain possibility that there could be patterns in the garments, details on the buttons, etc. These might be monotone patterns though. In other words, Reith’s vest or Zap’s cloak stay the color they are, but there might be some embroidery or something of the same color.
There might be embroidery, pockets, fabric strips sewn up the sides, ruffles, pleats, etc. Once we get the basic shape down, we can work on closeup drawings for the clothing details.
The buttons - they might be wooden, stone, copper, bronze, steel, silver, brass, gold, etc.
If wooden or stone, they would have holes for the threads to loop through for connecting to the garment. If metal, they could either have holes or metal loops cast into the back. If cast from metal, they might have cast sculptured patterns on the front. Buttons might also be dowel type shapes which turn 90 degrees when slipped through a slot in the fabric. Buttons might be discs, squares, diamonds, triangles, ellipses, etc.
I think it’s these details which would really add to the overall production. For example, I think Reith’s shirt should have buttons down the front. Taking into account that he bought the shirt from locals out on the Steppes, what kind of patterns might there be on the buttons?
Regarding your general question about simplicity - I haven’t stated that I want simplicity. I want plausible realism with fine detail as opposed to large scale overdone outfits.
Bryan_Y
#98
Just to clarify - it wasn’t a Pnume which attacked him. It was a Phung. I really like that scene.
I think the initial scene of the spacecraft orbiting the planet and the incoming torpedo would be great, but I think the whole hanging in the trees scene requires jungle modeling, which sounds like too much.
I’m not scared of architecture, because I’m working on my city generator. But jungles and marshes - I don’t want to go there… yet.
Keep reading, and keep thinking about what you like. It sounds like you’re well into the first book, which ends on page 152. So maybe you’ll be starting the second one soon. I really like the second one, and there are tons of awesome scenes in that one. I’m looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the second book.
Geuse
#99
Great, that’s valuable solid information and ideas.
Yes, pnume, phung. Having a hard time separating them all, but I’ll get there.
I just liked the whole jungle sequence, but I agree that it is probalby too demanding. At least for the moment, but depending on how many people who’ll join in the future, I want to leave it open for discussion. But the phung scene is settled then? And of course I can tell you have a very nice idea for your city generator, so that’ll be cool, but don’t reveal anything =)
Bryan_Y
#100
No! 
It’s a possibility that we’ll leave open. You need to get through at least the second book because there are some great scenes in that book.
But if you want to draw a Phung and post the sketch that would be really cool.
Geuse
#101
time for a little update
regarding the phung, i’m not sure what it’s features are, have to re-read it.
Bryan_Y
#102
She looks good, but she also looks very fashionable now, which is just a little bit in the wrong direction. The sleeves are good, nearly perfect. The cloak as it stands though, it almost looks like a high fashion coat, which isn’t quite right.
I’d probably drop the front of the hat’s brim a little bit - let it droop down in the front just a little. The good things about the cloak are it’s length and how it now form fits her body a little bit better, to show her slenderness.
But anyway, why don’t you give Zap a rest for a moment? Now that you’re reading the books, let’s focus on stuff that you’ve read. Keep me posted on where you are in the books so I know what you’ve thus far been exposed to.
There is one absolute certain no matter what scene we choose: We’re going to need a model of Adam Reith, his gadgets and his clothing.
Also, if you’re interested, we can start working on pipelines and Maya assets if you want. It might be interesting to start doing some modeling in Maya for proof-of-concept objects, even if they aren’t the final things used.
What platform are you on? Windows XP? Vista? Mac OSX? Linux? Would you be willing to get 3Delight and 3Delight for Maya installed? If we could get you setup there, then we could sync our shader and rendering output and get you up to speed in that area.
Then, maybe we could start working on some rough models of Reith’s head. And maybe as experiemnts, we could work on some garment accessories for him, such as buttons, belts, etc. and put together high quality renderings of the small accessories, just to refine the rendering and shading look, color tones, shadowing methods, illumination methods, etc. If we can get you synced with 3Delight, we can start sharing and evaluating the methods for lighting in outdoor scenes.
Also, (I don’t know if he’s reading this), but Keithtron (see this post) has, through some email correspondence with me, has taken an interest in some rigging, and he and I are hopefully going to be putting together a sort of uber-camera rig, wtih dolly tracks, boom, and fully rigged onscreen controls, simultaneous pane viewing, a resolution gate, etc. The final result should hopefully be way better than any type of camera animation controls currently available in Maya (at least to my knowledge). The theory is that the camera should be treated equally as a rigged character in terms of control and interaction.
What are your thoughts? 3Delight is pretty easy to install. You just have to get the license server setup properly.
Bryan_Y
#103
There might be some inspiration to be found at this site for things like buttons, buckles, etc.
Bryan_Y
#104
I was thinking it might be interesting to do some preliminary work of the Phung scene - maybe some storyboarding.
Also, here are some givens: We need an Adam Reith model, and I think we can start working on that. Also, if we could pull together some various models of props, etc. we could perhaps start refining the rendering pipeline.
I would like to start developing some shaders, perhaps for Reith’s clothing, skin, hair, and so on. Also, if we could get Reith’s head model built, we could start developing his hair, and general hair workflow techniques, etc. I don’t see hair as being easy, nor do I want to do it poorly, so I see it as being a long process of experimentation and devlopment, but I don’t mind - I just want to get started.