The whoel idea of workflow is to speed up the process of creation, and not be held back by kludgey tools.
Work arounds slow down production, plain and simple, there is no way to get around that. It is as set in stone as the 10 comandments.
Don’t think that doesn’t matter when you have a deadline? good luck.
The problem is most people don’t understand time or deadlines.
not really.
again. it comes down to the type of work your doing.
though when it comes to making characters. prototyping them, finishing them, modo cant compete.
The whoel idea of workflow is to speed up the process of creation, and not be held back by kludgey tools.
and yet modo is a new application which also has its own kludgey tools.
Work arounds slow down production, plain and simple, there is no way to get around that. It is as set in stone as the 10 comandments.
Don't think that doesn't matter when you have a deadline? good luck.
what you should have gotten from my post was that everything that can be done with the combination of tools i gave, and it will save you time and money in other areas ( where modo doesnt provide for ). yet modo cant even do some things with no matter how many workarounds you try. it would take far far too long to even try to compete with the combination i gave.
thats a limitation that will not allow you to do certain types of work. not something that will set you back some time.
you want fast workflow? then ask luxology to give you an immediate mode where you dont have to choose the tool you want to use, and then click in order to activate the tool in the viewport. that step alone can waste you lots of time ( and can cause RSI for clicking too damn much on the mouse ). ( if you just click and use tool right away you will make a mistake because in order to see the manipulator you have to click. or how about having to be very very accurate with selections… and not having modo aid you in selecting the nearest components? huge time waster. or wheres an object mode? your modelling objects… yet you cant arrange them like objects in every other application. small problems, but they are there, regardless of application.
customizing mouse so you can access many tools quicker than having to browse through icons/ buttons? again, not available in modo. and time wasted.
magnets, splines, edge weighing gets nowhere near the usage time on any model that creating and manipulating it does, and modo still lacks in a number of those fundamentals.
if you want examples, i got pages of them if you just do a search.
i think the price i paid for modo is a bit high. but i paid it for the mere point of supporting the company, so its ok. i like modo for the things it does well, but theres also lots of under developed areas ( morphs comes to mind specifically). im just giving you an unbiased recomendation of what youll get more out of.
but, back to the topic at hand. if you want the most out of your money, just pick xsi foundation. now theres something modo cant compete with ( because xsi is a full package ), and costs 200 less than modo. im not the biggest fan of the xsi modeller because it has a few quirks which drive me up the wall ( mostly noticable when working with high poly meshes ), but it does the job, and allows me to do things such as asymetric modelling… even with symmetry on. weird concept, i know, but it kicks ass when done properly.
up to you dude, but choose wisely if your strapped for cash.
"…and then click in order to activate the tool in the viewport. "
“magnets, splines, edge weighing gets nowhere near the usage time on any model that creating and manipulating it does, and modo still lacks in a number of those fundamentals.”
that is a personal statement. for example in my personal work enviroment, they take alot of usage
Modo is made for general purpose modelling. You can model basically anything in it.
ZBrush is NOT a general purpose modelling program! It is mainly an art program like painter or something. It has very limited 3d capability. Basically you can play around with 1 3d object at a time, using very primitive manipulation tools…and as soon as you want to touc another 3d object the first one becomes just an image.
ZBrush is good for making displacement maps for models that you import. But not ANY displacement maps…basicaly just organic or wear type displacements.
You can create models that have low res mesh in ZBrush using ZSpheres pretty quickly, but the control that you have over them is much less than you’d have in any normal program and you’ll spend more time tweaking that mesh to make it decent than you would making it normally from the start.
Basically…you can do a lot in ZBrush if you work from start to finish in ZB…but a lot of the features such as the UV mapping or texture projection or high res models really arent practical in a normal pipeline.
In summary…ZB is good for making displacement maps for organic models, or displacement maps for damaged objects…and thats about the extent of it.
You dont NEED ZB, you do need a modelling program. I recommend Silo because you’re economically minded.
to use ZB and work for animation the best workflow so far is to build your base mesh with a good topology into a normal modeler, like Modo, Silo or whatever , and then build your details and extract your maps in ZB. u could also start your model in ZB, then tweak their topology into a poligon modeler and reimport them and start detailing.that’s the main use that has been made in Weta. use ZB to build maps, and also maquettes, no problem for the topology, because afterwards they were reworked using maya live or in other ways to build an efficient mesh foor animation.
so far, ZB is a great companion for other traditional apps for these and many other reasons. when the new features will be there, the workflow will surely change, at least for organics. u will be able to build a mesh over another, used as a base,doing the same work weta did in Maya and so u’ll be able to work on topology better suited for animation.
this being said, if u have to provide characters to be animated now, u can choose something like Modo, or also try demos of Silo, or wings,but also complete packages like XSI or even Lw because despite the different workflow, with these tools u can build characters well suited for animation from the start, and u have several tools to work on topology too.
so, one day , when u can afford it u could bring your chars in ZB and start to add fine details, build maps, textures for them even deform and pose them to build new chars, etc.
Well, ever since someone on the German Lightwave forum pointed me at your posts here, I have been reading nothing but negative comments on Modo by you and yet you claim to be a loyal user. That is very strange and I surely would attribute a negative personality to you - even more negative than mine, and I have a reputation for that. A lot of what you are saying is very subjective or right away wrong. For the most part I think you haven’t taken the time to “think yourself” into the overall concept of Modo or simply are too spoiled by other apps and too inflexible to adapt your workflow. It is quite clear that you haven’t found >>>your<<< Modo yet.
That comment about mouse menus for instance is pointless - in theory you could have something like 600 keyboard shortcuts that should allow even you to tie every function to them and not having to “browse through icons/ buttons”. And yeah, a Pie menue is pretty much a mouse menu, is it not? So get to it and build your own ones. What’s wrong with just having to push an additional key to open them? I could only assume you only have one hand, in which case this is of course critical and that is stopping you from using Modo properly.
I’m not saying Modo is perfect (yet), but neither would I go back to LW Modeler or do SDS Modeling in Maya. Modo is the right tool for me at the right time and if Lux keep up the good work and don’t become complacent they will have a great future ahead of them.
Mylenium
Well…
If AW is saying that there requires less clicking to get things done, then yea man, that is probably the case eh…
I mean, here’s a take on this… Wings3d, latest release(s) have clicking out before making next transition all but a thing of the past… yahoo… even less clicking… so here ya have highlight as temp selection, thus no click in, and then go go go from one op to the next. without clicking out between such… I mean how sweet is that eh?
That is what is called workflow enhancing… and between this sort of interactive bliss, and then getting on to where if a click is required, like doing a dolly for instance, then it is click and release… don’t have to hold the durn button down when moving the ole mouse/pen… oh yea man, this is modeling bliss on the ole tendons for sure… thousands upon thousand transitions later and all is Super…
redundant clicks, over complex tools etc, are not time savers eh… they require input at a time where the input should only be you going from one to the next without having to think about clicks or tools at all…
So box model up a few simple objects… say a bishop chess piece, and I dunno, maybe a chess board/table… a cup and or an ashtray even… and make em the same object (density )with each app, and count the trans/ops required within each app to gain completion of said object(s)…
So… what’s the score at the end of it all… did Modo require like 500 times less moves than Wings3d, or did Modo require five times less moves than required by Silo?
or, would the same money be better spent buying into ZBrush technology, while making due with what can only be described as great modeling apps in Wings3D and Silo…
People can twist words all they want… just count the frikking moves is really all that counts… well that and a good open workspace in front of you… Just you and your model, and your hotkeys to sweetness 
cheers
I think there are more than a few people using it for just this kind of thing that would strongly disagree with that.
And since the rest of this post has been factually disputed about other things, I’ll leave it at that.
Since you claim to have purchased Modo, I might suggest that you read the manual so that you actually know what Modo can and can’t do, not just guess at it.
most are comparing modo to the lw modeler. haven’t used it personally, but have u used wings? cuz if it’s all about better selection, quick workflow, then wings is pretty sufficient. As xtrude has mentioned there’s been a workflow update that makes it even faster (though i’m still a bit stuck on old school. old habits die hard).
@xtrude: u seem to use both. how much better is modo to wings? overall.
for the topic though, i gta re etirate the point that xsi is prolly the way to go for a beginner. it exposes u to alot more than modo or z2 can. It’s a much better investment at this point. It’ll make you alot more marketable cuz u have some depth and are not just a modeler. you learn how ur edge flow affects your rig and thus your animation. and as much as many here love modo, u gta accept that xsi is still probably used in more studion than modo.
for me, even at $500, modo is still too expensive. for what i need personally, wings suffices. i’m still waiting for mirai… waiting… (u still emailing em martin?)… it’s all about knowing wat u need. it’s hard to solve a problem if you don’t know the question
For the most part I think you haven’t taken the time to “think yourself” into the overall concept of Modo or simply are too spoiled by other apps and too inflexible to adapt your workflow. It is quite clear that you haven’t found >>>your<<< Modo yet.
pls… no offense intended at all. maybe i’m just misunderstanding, but your arguement sounds silly. if you can be “spoiled” by another app, why waste your time trudging through another one?
i mean it’s like… why use a table saw when u can use a miter saw?
programs are meant to be intuitive. they are supposed to adapt to the user, not the other way around. in fact isn’t this one of modo’s selling points? ppl shouldn’t have to “take that much time” to understand how a certain workflow runs. it’s supposed to be designed so that the workflow follows how the average person thinks.
–arvin
Only natural I guess since Modo is really the update LW8 SHOULD have been, and many of the purchasers are people who feel that Modo is an UPGRADE from LW8’s Modeler. Myself included.
As a Lightwave and Maya user, I’m just fine with Modo’s workflow. And no, I haven’t tried wings, but I did try Silo. Unfortunately I’m not likely to spend a lot of time on apps that just are not used in any production pipeline.
Do you know how many studios have adopted Modo into their pipeline? Bet you would be surprised.
But on that note, I think you would be hard pressed to find ANY studios using Silo, Blender or Wings. So where is the advantage of recommending something no one uses?
So If I want to be a Grand National stock car driver, to see if I really like driving at all, go buy a beat up volkswagon and put STP stickers on it and hit the 405??
See this is why people have gotten agitated with some of the replies when people ask if they should buy Modo or not, then get tons of responses from people who have never used it saying Modo makes no sense.
Modo is quite intuitive. The workflow doesn’t screw with you while you are working. Those who upgraded from another app already know that the tool set has a lot more extras than things it supposedly lacks. And that in itself is a funny argument considering some of the cheap/free apps that people are pushing as alternates have even fewer tools available than Modo.
Then today I see that Modo is incapable of protyping/building characters. Like I said, that will come as a surprise to those who happen to be using it for that very reason.
And finally people say the price isn’t worth it because they personally (the person responding) can’t afford it, when that wasn’t the question at all. It would be nice if people answered what was being asked.
firstly, i missed wat your analogy is talking about
about workflow… i was saying that in response to what was said by mylenium about made about aw’s comments. he’s used it appaerantly. mylenium was saying that … well man… read it for urself.
wings is free… that’s it. not saying learn it alone. i’m saying learn something else -xsi- and skip on modo. for the time being.
most importantly i think, alot of you guys have been really deprived with the maya lw modelers. i guess if i hadn’t used wings i’d be all about modo right now too. it gets us agitated about ppl raving about modo is it’s pimped as something revolutionary and there’s been software out for years that have done the same thing. maybe even better.
peh… could type some more… not worth it. i’m tired. look as far as the question goes… go buy xsi… that’s wat i would do if i were in ur place. maybe start a poll or something.
as far as modo… waste of money right now imo. i can chunk out models in wings or watever else and export as obj or fbx. it should import right into an animation/renderer. if u want to spend $500 on it, and u think it’s wonderful that’s quite fine. if it floats ur boat and makes u work faster, and it’s necessary to ur workflow, by all means go get it. for the rest i’d suggest wings. it’s great, quick, better than maya/lw modeler, and $500 cheaper than modo.
hey max u got ne modo work up btw? i’d like to see. btw… i know all this is prolly pissin u off. don’t let it yo. it’s about the software, not u or me or brad peebler or watever. l8r.
–arvin
Madmax loves modo. I learned that in another thread! (No hard feelings, alright, man?)
I think the thing everyone needs to remember when discussing different modelers, renderers, all software in general is that for some people x app will work best for them. For others, y app will work best. That’s the problem with Modo right now is that there’s no demo. If only everyone could get a chance to try it out and see if it’s the right modeler for them.
For ME, Silo + Zbrush is a sweet combo. For Madmax, Modo is his weapon of choice. There’s nothing wrong with either of our choices! Whatever works best for YOU as an individual.
You were not supposed to get it. That was the whole point. People use car analogies for all kinds of things that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. Like table saws.
already did. Before I posted. However I’m not going to assume that someones typed words necessarily clearly expressed what he was trying to say either. Happens a lot.
Okay great. So I ask you, since you haven’t used Modo, why are you so adamant people skip it? when they asked the question in the first place, obviously they already have an interest in the program. Your last quote here basically says “Buy or get anything BUT Modo.” This honestly sounds more like a general hostility towards the program that an attempt at being helpful. It just seems there are a lot of people who have never used it making an awful lot of effort in trying to talk people out of it.
I would hardly call Maya and LW animators deprived. And here you are sayng that people promoting Modo irritate you, people who have used it, because they are not bragging up Wings? How does this make sense?
No one said modo was revolutionary. In fact I can be quoted as saying that there was no more revolutionary to be had in our market until such time as neural interfaces with teh ability to think models onto the screen become a reality. I have also said that Modo doesn’t bring anything new to the table in general, but it does bring what is there to the table better and easier.
Toasters and Vacuum cleaners have not changed much since they first came out. A vacuum cleaner today does very little different that a Vacuum from the 1050’s. There is nothing revolutionary. Although they have streamlined operation and made it easier. Cannister instead of a bag for example, filters etc. which would you rather have, a 75.00 Hoover with a bag, or a 350.00 Dyson with a quick change cannister? Both DO EXACTLY the same thing, they suck. But in truth, I spend less time and hassle with a new Dyson.
That is a far cry from the argument you are making about Modo users responses. LW is easy to use, but it has a few drawbacks. Maya has a lot of great tools that are sometimes difficult to use when speed is a necessity.
Over the years, Newtek has asked for “what would you like to see” and they get tons of replies, and then basically nothing comes of it. We get upgrades like LW8 for 500.00 that consist largely of a handful of plugins that I had already purchased and were using that NT licensed and included and made me wait a year for after I had paid for it.
The same bugs however were still there, that had been there since version 6 with no sign of improvement.
All you ever hear from NT is we’re working on it.
Then Modo comes along, and it has many of the tools that users had been requesting. Many of which are very similar in look and feel to Maya tools, but quicker and easier to use. At the very least a very good stop gap between the two programs.
In very short order I found I could do the same models in less time in Modo than I could in LW, and do them better because I didn’t have to screw around with work arounds for functions LW lacks. Modo’s edge tools have rapidly become one of my most frequently used tools.
Sorry but I am very hard pressed to find fault with Modo when I’m squeaking out a litle bit of extra work than before, and that means I make a few bucks extra.
So I would certainly not call it a waste of money.
not yet, but I 'm going to give Brad some stuff to put up on the Lux site in the near future when I have the time.
Not to worry, not pissing me off at all. Thats is your opinion and I suspect if you had Modo, you’d feel differently.
@Gutterbox: Since Lux really initially targetted LW users, it’s not a surprise that the perspective is going to be to compare how it fares against LW directly. As a LW and Maya user, Modo fits well within what I do. in my perspective, 500.00 is nothing. I’ll make that back in a few hours.
Between LW and Maya you have a bit of a mess. LW, modeler needs serious work, Renderer is excellent. MAYA great modeling and animation capabilities, great UV’s, native renderer sucks. A bit on the heavy side sometimes, and not suited to working fast. Neither is what I would call perfect.
Modo fits well in between. bypass LW Modeler issues, go straight to render. With maya, Modo can by pass a lot of the heavy issues, model rapidly, import, UV and render.
I think if you were to poll actual users, you’ll find quite a few fit in that category.
manual doesnt cover every single thing in the application. ( otherwise there wouldnt be a thread in the modo forum about things nobody knows. theres lots and lots that hasnt been covered. every application suffers from this ( even maya has undocumented nodes all over the place ( and they got probably the most thorough documentation out there for a 3d application). plus theres been an update to modo too, which isnt in the manual ;).
anyway its not a hard application to use, once you got your viewport setup to act how you want, and know how to use the workplane. once you get a hang of the magnets, morphs, etc there isnt that much there which is SOOO way out there thats different from other modellers. sure you can use arrow keys for doing things like growing selections, selecting parallel loops, etc. but thats just different hotkey layouts, not new concepts. the one thing that modo does really kick butt at is the flexibility of the interface.( including buttons/menus and making custom versions of tools ) thats something that luxology really nailed down extremely well. its relatively easy to do if you just view examples of the interface bits that are already done to construct the already made interface of modo.
i still stand at my recomendation that you could spend 700 more appropriately though.
xsi, to give you a complete package, with rather good modelling. ( only 500 bucks too )
or silo, zbrush, uv mapper.
but even though this thread will probably drag on and on. i think the thread starter should mention exactly what type of work he will use the application for. because for example if your going to be doing mostly mechanical work then modo is very nice for those reasons. decent array tools, copy/ paste ontop of surfaces, macro tools, etc. all of which arent so good or not at all inside silo.
Well, ever since someone on the German Lightwave forum pointed me at your posts here, I have been reading nothing but negative comments on Modo by you and yet you claim to be a loyal user. That is very strange and I surely would attribute a negative personality to you - even more negative than mine, and I have a reputation for that. A lot of what you are saying is very subjective or right away wrong. For the most part I think you haven’t taken the time to “think yourself” into the overall concept of Modo or simply are too spoiled by other apps and too inflexible to adapt your workflow. It is quite clear that you haven’t found >>>your<<< Modo yet.
its got nothing to do about negativity. its more about the fact that modo didnt live up to its marketing hype originally, and is still ways to go before it gets there. i like to dibble in all modellers, see where they can excel at, and where they could use work. theres not one modeller that i am 100% loyal to. sure i use a few more than others, and for some i dont really have much of a choice.
if nobody would state problems then nothing would ever get solved. not to get egotystical or cocky or anything like that, through the few betas ive been a part of, i dont think youd ever hear anyone say i was a bad tester. i like breaking software, and see where it can improve. its a hobby. plus, the great thing is, if i can help with suggestions to developers, ill end up with tools that are very much solid, that ill be happy to use for work because it will make things easier ). also often these arent just MY needs, because ive had my share of conversations with other artists about things theyd like to see added or improved. if you think thats negative, great, but its not my intent. you can ask jason narin that makes clay, or the guys that make silo, or the guys that maks zbrush. or for wings 3d i made a few suggestions of things that mirai had that wings 3d was missing. ( some of which helped to make wings 3d much more comfortable for all. it wasnt my original idea, but the intent to help was there. ) i always try to help when i can. in the case of this thread, i can see a smarter way of spending money, than just on a modeller.
That comment about mouse menus for instance is pointless - in theory you could have something like 600 keyboard shortcuts that should allow even you to tie every function to them and not having to “browse through icons/ buttons”. And yeah, a Pie menue is pretty much a mouse menu, is it not? So get to it and build your own ones. What’s wrong with just having to push an additional key to open them? I could only assume you only have one hand, in which case this is of course critical and that is stopping you from using Modo properly.
if you put one hand around shift, ctrl, alt, and have the other on your mouse ( which has 3 keys+ scroller ), you can have many combinations that you can assign to tools, options, etc. much better than hunting buttons or those 600 hotkeys that you say. so having mouse customization can speed you up by a ton, because your never hunting for keys. your hands are already there. when you type you dont use one hand/finger do you? or what about when you play the piano? a human is very much able to use both of his hands in sync to pull out combinations quickly, so why not allow us. this has also been something that was promised when modo was originally shown early on ( the max interfaces, and having the app act like all other applications out there). so thats why its a bit of a dissapointment.
Mr. lovisx,
Prolly becuase being in a Modo forum section most of the folks who have posted above both of us… actually have Modo… 
So, if they make a statement good or Bad at least they have the aplication, and used it to prove a point…
I, myself realy didnt want to post anymore on threads like these, they realy seem to go nowhere except under folks skin.
But… from the begging i wanted to say that Zb looks to me like a product that nobody has anything bad to say in any forum…
All can agree its a great app, and will enhance any modeler application out there with the addition of a good renderer that supports Displacement Maps.
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=200732
proof in the pudddinnnnn
how do you know if I have access to the program or not. I think watchers of south park assume to much.
Folks who purchased Modo, have more weight when they say it is either good or bad.
Folks that have toyed with it, and haven’t purchased it don’t have as much weight.
Paying Customer is always right.
If your a paying customer then I apologize and give you some weight…
South Park… though old, still is a great toon that either mocks, or makes fun of social issues.
That type of comedic satire is long lost, because TV folk are scared of the current political establishment in the US.