2013 extension announcement...rant


We don’t know if this will extend to Max 2014, or if this is just applies to the subscription period, because ‘Autodesk can’t announce futurezzzzz’

My instinct is that is their intention, but we don’t know for certain and it seems like a dumb move to cause all this grief for nothing.

Or maybe it was a finger in the air thing.

A finger that is going to be covered in shit by the end of it…


An update.

Oleg has said there will be 2013 updates for Box#2 and Box#3 shortly.



Hehe - i can’t wait reading something like:

“Due to negligible conversion rates from 3ds Max/3ds Max Design to 3ds Max Creation Suite after we announced the Particle Flow Extension SAP, and due to our extensive focus group testing and market research on that matter, we clearly can say, it was the right decision to release the Extension for Suites only.
The numbers are not lying: 3ds Max/3ds Max Design users are quite happy and satisfied with the VERSATILE™ Particleflow Toolset, 3ds Max/3ds Max Design provides. And at the same time we served the more advanced needs of the 1% of the userbase using 3ds Max/3ds Max Design in the non-Arch/Viz segment”



I usually take a step back when there’s a quick reaction to a change in software/hardware - people get very passionate, lose their sense of perspective until the dust settles.

I’ve tried to look at this decision objectively but I can’t. There’s absolutely no way I can see this as anything other than a huge ‘F**k you’ to the majority of 3ds Max’s user base.

The Autodesk Subscription program helps you get the most out of your Autodesk software. For an annual fee, Subscription customers get convenient access to:

[li]Software Upgrades—Stay current with the latest product releases[/li]> [/ul]
Limiting new features to those who have only bought the Creation Suite is not only insulting to everyone who bought into the subscription model, it renders the above statement completely false.

I definitely want to hear the official reasoning behind this decision. To me all it is doing is forcing those to who want advances & development in their software to spend even more on additional software they do not want/need.


Wow, just wow. I really wouldn’t want to be the person having to defend this decision at Siggraph. :slight_smile:


Please someone ask them about it and video the response, it might make it at least partially worthwhile.


Can’t but fully agree with you guys on this one - I was appalled at the subs increase - lets all try putting our prices up by 30% see what our customers say. To follow this with a SAP that’s of such limited use is madness. Now if they had bundled all of the pflow stuff and Gepetto with Max - yeah we’re getting something more useful (as long as they added extra content over the free version)

I get really frustrated when things like composite are bundled but then left for dead - this is NO benefit to users, why waste our time learning to operate, and creating a workflow if the guys don’t develop the software? Even more frustrating than not getting the bloody software in the first place.

I’ve just (yep today) renewed my subs, but am now seriously looking which direction to go in the future:-

  1. Max on subs, ACAD not on subs, and maybe Revit in future (so yeah a suite) for £1000 subs a year

  2. Ship all to c4d with the nice crossgrade prices they are offering

  3. Drop off subs all together and buy max again once it’s actually got real benefits over current version

  4. Max on subs and TP?

There’s only one there that sticks out as not making financial sense :wink:

To essentially downgrade a £3k package to second rate Liteware seems just crazy to me.


Oleg just wrote on his forum, that the Subscription Extension download works in “read only” mode for non-Suite users. That means you can still load and render those Max scenes wich are using the extensions, but you have no access to the UI or the parameters of those operators…

BTW, no need to get a read-only version of Box2/Box3 from Orbaz for 3ds Max 2013. Now you just need to install the subscription extension - it works like the read-only for Box2 / Box3.

It means that you can do your work with the Boxes, bake the simulation for Box2, and send it out for rendering to a 3rd party render farm business, if the render farm in question has installed the subscription extension for Max 2013.

Oleg B.


So is this some kind of new policy, to not release updates to people with just the normal subscription? Does this mean that if a Subscription Advantage Pack comes out, I won’t be able to get that either?


Who knows?

I expect when the US wakes up and Autodesk sees the furore we may get a comment, or it may be a ‘we can’t comment on future plans’


We are working on the situation.

  1. Sub users currently get some pieces of Box3 (some cache operators)
  2. ECS users get Box2/3
  3. Efforts were made to ensure data interop between those that aren’t on subs and those on subs or that have ECS. We tried in a short period of time, to at least allow data to move around a facility (something you didn’t have before without buying more Pflow box2/3 seats).

As has been described in this thread, Oleg is offering Box2/3 to existing users on his terms. Nothing has been taken away and your choices are not limited.

Oleg is part of a multi-year codevelopment effort and we just got started. You’re going to have to give him a little while to help us sort through all his IP and prioritize what we want to do with it. He’s very busy at this time.

No promises can be made about changing this situation, but some investigations are happening. We’re not permitted to discuss future plans around these things. Sorry.


On the Autodesk website it says subscription users only get the cache operators:


MassFX mParticles*—Create particle simulations that replicate real-world effects with the new mParticles module for the MassFX system of simulation solvers. With Birth operators optimized for MassFX simulations, a preset flow for easier initial setup and two easy-to-use modifiers that enable particles to affect standard mesh objects, mParticles helps you create stunning simulations with less effort.

Advanced Data Manipulation*—Create customized, Particle Flow tools with the versatile new Advanced Data Manipulation toolset. Motion graphics artists and visual effects specialists can now combine up to 27 different suboperators to easily create their own event-driven Data Operators and save results as presets, or as standard actions in the Particle View depot.

Cache Disk and Cache Selective—Work more efficiently with two new Cache operators for the versatile Particle Flow toolset. The new Cache Disk operator offers the ability to precalculate and store Particle Flow simulations on the hard disk, separate from the 3ds Max scene file, helping you iterate faster. The Cache Selective operator enables artists to cache only certain types of Particle Flow data.

*Only available with Autodesk® 3ds Max® Entertainment Creation Suite 2013 Standard, Premium, and Ultimate editions

No one is beating you up for giving them box 2, but rather for apparently only giving them the cache operators unless they are on a ECS subscription.


Installed here Ken and there is only cache disk, cache selective added none of the massfx goodies. Extension showing in the installed programs, but nothing on the splash screen for max or in about - so maybe something wrong on installation.

I’m failing to see where any of the Box 2 operators are in my pflow dialogue, but according to the website the two cache operators are all that the Stand alone max subs get you?

Maybe I’m getting confused along with others?


Hi Ken,

you are getting a kicking because that’s not how it is listed on the announcement and not how it installs.

Sub users get the cache operators, not Box #2

‘Basic’ Sub - cache operators

ECS Sub - Box 2 and Box 3 equivalents

  • Steve


I’d be happy if the box 2 stuff was in there - as it’s been lauded as the xbr unified dynamics system (yep I know it’s not been promised!) or am I off the mark here?


+1 for all the points above.

I’m installing the extension now to confirm but everyone I’ve spoken to who has done so confirms no Box 2 features, only the caching.


I’ve been out on vacation for 6 weeks, so let me make sure I know the facts before I start claiming things. I could be wrong as my memory is fuzzy around how we intended to do this.

ECS users are definitely getting box2/3, just not perfectly clear what Max sub users are getting.


I’m on standard 3ds Max subscription ( just renewed for another 3yrs … sigh …)
i installed the extension and the only additional operators i got was those cache operators…

And i hope for this little glimbse of hope that this might indeed be some mistake with the licensing, as this huge mistake AD would make otherwise was already discussed at length elsewhere on some Autodesk forum…


In two minds over it.

I already had Box #2 up to 2012, the recompiles seemed to be held back until now, and have only just been announced by Oleg.

So it makes no difference to me that it it’s in there. Just file it under the rest of the stuff that I’ve bought like Character Studio, Cloth, Reactor, Box #1 that Autodesk bundled.

I’m just glad I never fell for Toxik.

I was hoping for something more substantial than something that I’ve had for years… but I’m not surprised.

I keep getting told to hang on, but I’m done.

I may come back when Autodesk offer something substantial, when XBR is out of that rock.


Which is exactly why people are not happy.

I appreciate you’ve been out of the loop but saying things like “Why are you are beating us up for giving you Box2? Seriously, you are ahead in the game!” isn’t making the situation any better.