2013 extension announcement...rant



What is the deal with this only being available through the creation suites!? I have used these tools extensively since they have been in beta with Orbaz, and now the only way to get them will be to shell out several thousand more dollars? 3ds max has always been the underdog in the industry and every time it gets a leg up it seems you guys sabotage yourself. You have finally done away with the multiple stages/versions of your other products (maya complete / unlimited…all the different flavors of XSI…) and now you want to do it to 3ds max!? Every time the max community thinks max is finally showing its colors as Autodesk’s “flagship” application, it gets a wrench thrown in and you piss off its users. While the particle flow tools were perhaps not the success they could have been with Orbaz, they were amazing tools and integrating them into MassFX would really push them over the top. And not only that, these tools have the potential to be so much more as they get integrated deeper into 3ds max. But by doing this you will drive most people who would use this back to 3rd party tools (not always a bad thing). And making the appeal of 3ds max even less. I mean, why use these tools if I am paying enough to use XSI or even Houdini? And while XSI is a pretty cool fx/td tool, it does seem to have a very large shadow on its development, making it a questionably leap for artists who are not already familiar with it. And for as cool as the particle flow tools are and as much potential as they have…it still puts 3ds max a ways away from Houdini’s internal cross-data manipulation. And to be honest, if I have to pay the same for max as Houdini…I may be less inclined towards max if I am a more technically oriented artist. As a very long time max artist, and one who has come to lean towards the more fx heavy work, I am appalled at this move. If XBR is truly Autodesk’s flagship product, it should start treating all those who supported it faithfully over the years with amazing things and not come across as greedy bastards who care only to dangle good ideas in front of them and then ask for more money to get them.

btw…I am not saying Autodesk is a greedy bastard, only that you may come across like it with a move like this…


I agree with Charley. What happens to all of us who paid for the toolbox 2/3 combo package? We have to pay 2 more thousand dollars to get our scene files working again in 2013? That’s pretty ludicrous. Offer these tools as the extension for max w/o selling us your Sh*t Mudbox/Motionbuilder products. Obviously they arn’et selling so good so you must try to stuff us with this crap… What do particles have anything to do with Motionbuilder/Mudbox???

Finally we get these great particle tools. Except we dont get them… You could put these great tools in everyones hands except you won’t. A real Shitty move…


I’m confused by this move. Why would you force people to buy the Creative Suite to get the new particle extension? And as mentioned already, what happens to Box 2 & 3 owners? I could see if the extension was related somehow to the Creative Suite, but the Particle Extension is just for FX artists. Especially considering that they offer fairly advanced power, it’s very FX TD specific. Why not let FX TDs get their hands on this new tool (which is essentially an upgrade to Box 2 and 3 from my understanding)?

Some kind of response explaining the logic behind this move would be great because as it is, I can’t make any sense out of it. It’s not like people are going to buy the Creative Suite just to get the particle extension, it’s too expensive for that purpose. It’s not going to sway many new buyers to go for the expensive Creative Suite, it’s not broad enough of a tool.

Kind of hoping this is just a big misunderstanding.


I have to say that I am quite upset and shocked by the new announcement by Adesk regarding the policy for the 2013 Extensions for 3ds Max (Pflow Box 2 & 3)! Requiring customers to own one of the Creative Suites in order to obtain these tools is downright rotten and completely idiotic. People who typically need these tools are FX artists, most of whom do not need Mudbox, Motion Builder or Sketchbook. Why are we being forced to pay extra for software we do not use or need in order to get features that were once part of a 3rd party plugin in, which a lot of us have already payed for. Max has just started picking up major momentum in the vfx world as a “go to” package for particles and fx, mainly due to all the great plugins and FREEDOM TO CHOOSE the right tool for the job. Now we are having software that has no usefulness for our needs crammed down our throats in order to get these tools. Mark my word, this will not go over very well with your customer base and expect a lot of upset people visiting your booth and Siggraph (myself included).

And what is the planned policy for those of us who already own Orbaz Box 2 & 3…will there be some kind of upgrade path or are we S.O.L.? Also, will we need a Creative Suite license simply to LOAD scenes that use Box 2 & 3 feature? Does every single seat in a studio need to be be upgraded to a Suite in order to use these new features? It is completely obvious this decision was made by suites in a board room meeting who know exactly zero about the needs of a production studio and wreaks of “Hey, our creative suites aren’t selling all that well. How can we use our recent acquisition of Orbaz to force people to buy this crap they don’t really want?”.

Please, Adesk, rethink what you are doing here. This is such a poorly thought out move and shows they have no clue about the needs of their customers. It’s like saying you have to purchase a Drill/Power Saw/Sander combo pack in order to get any drill bits.



I agree with you all. Its confounding to me. It seems like such an arbitrary decision. I don’t think suite owners were begging for this feature. And I don’t think the box users were a big enough contingent that Autodesk would profit from making a few hundred people upgrade to suite JUST for this feature.

And don’t give me the “plus Motionbuilder and sketchbook–what a value!” argument. That’s like trying to get a carpenter excited about a bundled tile saw.


guys i’m confused what the problem is. at the bottom of the page of the link posted by charlie it says:

Subscription Extensions
This extension is available for 3ds Max and 3ds Max Design exclusively for Autodesk® Subscription customers at the Subscription Center. Download your 3ds Max extension.
you don’t need the creative suite to get this extension, its just like normal where subscription customers get the extension first and then it is usually integrated into the next max version. I followed the link and signed in with the work login and the files are there for me to download. We are on subscription but we do NOT have the creative suite.

Have I missed something???


Yeah, I just downloaded the extension, but I think we just have plain ol’ max here…


Yes, look above the last paragraph

*Only available with Autodesk® 3ds Max® Entertainment Creation Suite 2013 Standard, Premium, and Ultimate editions

Now note that the first two bullet points have asterisks, leaving standalone 3ds max users with the last bulletpoint.

I’m not 100% sure, but I believe that Max shows/hides the additional particle flow operators based on your 3ds Max serial number. If it is a suite #, they are enabled, otherwise they are hidden.


I am a 3ds Max subscription user, not ECS.
I got just two new Opertators (Cache Disk & Cache Selective ). :-/


aah, same here, just installed it, just boring old cache stuff, no cool fun dynamics stuff… :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I guess my next conversation with my boss will be like ‘oh you need to buy a second copy of motionbuilder and another copy of mudbox so I can do particle physics simulations’ yep, thats not confusing at all… :hmm:


right, i understand now. resume the rants!


I’ve been using 3ds Max since R1 and have been on subscription continuously since it’s been available. I’ve also been debating whether I should continue my subscription when it comes up this fall.
When I saw the announcement of the new 2013 Extension today I was pleasantly surprised and immediately downloaded it. It didn’t seem like a big add-on, but at least Particle Flow was getting some needed attention.
So after not being able to find any of the new Particle Flow operators, I see the thread here and find that as I’m only a freelancer with a mere 3ds Max subscription (not Creative Suite), I’ve only been given one third of the crumb Autodesk threw to their subscribers.
I think you guys would have been better off not releasing anything rather than exposing the Autodesk Subscriber Caste System.
This really reminds me of the Netflix debacle a few months ago. I would love to be supportive of your company, but you make it really hard!


So,we pay $595 for 1 year subscription then we only get $49 orbaz’s Particle Flow Tools: Cache ?

what a F**King good business for Autodesk :thumbsup:


OK… Autodesk wants more money. I can understand that. But, I must say WTF. I’m usually a defender of Autodesk. But, this is just WRONG.

As Tobbe mentioned, people wouldn’t spend 1,800 for box#2/3.

Even worse you don’t even provide a read only version. When it was a plugin, you need box #2/3 only for actual work. If you dont need to touch a setup, you could read without license.

We have around 10 max seat. We WILL NOT spend 18,000 to get box#2/3. NEVER. We can just buy TP or we can even buy 2 seats of Houdini.

It’s simple. Autodesk, you would not get the money with this move. You will drive away many users from max.

As a long time max user, I beg to Autodesk reconsider this move.


Should be interesting at the Autodesk booth at SIGGRAPH tomorrow.


Ken, if you think that will satisfy 99% of users you are on another planet.


What? I’m not Ken. I’m saying I think there are going to be some irate people at SIGGRAPH that they are going to deal with face-to-face including myself.


I don’t normally reply to my own posts, but this makes me absolutely livid, and it will at least get my blood-pressure down.

I already bought Maya way back and didn’t really get on with it.

I also bought Mudbox, but found I got much more value out of Zbrush, despite its wacky interface, and never upgraded it when Autodesk bought it.

I swore blind I wouldn’t buy into another Autodesk application after we were dicked around with combustion, this feels like the same kind of stunt you played with Toxik.

I have no use for motionbuilder, and am not at all interested in sticking all my eggs in one basket that Autodesk can dictate what they do with.

If it’s a choice between having to ‘upgrade’ to a creation suite to get these, or C4D, it’s a no-brainer.

It’s Oleg I feel sorry for, because after all that hard work I imagine it’s not going to be pleasant to have this kind of decision dictated from higher up in Autodesk.

I really hope you change you mind - I was wavering about bothering with a subscription renewal, but this batshit-insane nonsense from Autodesk made that one up for me, so thanks for that at least.


Sorry, it’s about a comment made by Ken earlier on in another thread, that they thought they had a solution that would work for 99% of users. I’m sure he’s going to be reading this.

It wasn’t directed at you.


WTF do Autodesk think they’re playing at?

I’d thought I’d put up with enough sh*t with all the bugs caused by the 1 year product cycle and the massive hike in subscription prices etc etc. I still have Max 2012 & 2013 sat on a shelf unused cos they either don’t work properly or I can’t get up to date plug-ins (4 product updates already for Max 2013, why not wait the extra 6 months and release something that works).

But this latest stunt really takes the p*ss. Autodesk obviously have a very low opinion of it’s customers, the people that pay their wages. I’m on subscription, I don’t have a creation suite as I have ABSOLUTLEY NO USE for the bundled software. If Autodesk think they can sell me a load of unwanted software they can think again.

I can’t express how angry this is making me.

As Bradley Wiggins put it in a recent press conference “c***s”