The coding and a code of ethic...

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  07 July 2011
The coding and a code of ethic...

i don't think that i took the wrong place for this thread.

the max script coding is the livehood for most of us. i'm browsing for interesting ideas, solutions, etc. every day. i'm using somebody else's ideas in my development. i'm using open and free resources and it's absolutely OK for me.
but:
-- i've never resold somebody else's ideas
-- if i keep the original code in the original form i always give the reference to the original author
-- i've never hidden (encrypted) not my code and the fact of its using

it's not a secret that an encrypted mxs script is not secure at all. and it's hard to understand for me when i see a piece of code 100% stolen from an open source being included in commercial tool (or desirably commercial).

what do you think Bros?
 
  07 July 2011
I think not a lot of people on this forum are actively selling their scripts publicly, most including myself are hobbyists and/or developing inhouse tools. I don't bother giving credit in my code for inhouse tools (not that I would normally find myself using complete blocks of someone elses code), simply because noone's ever going to read it but me.

Of course I do agree that if anyone is releasing their scripts either for free or commercially, they should acknowledge all the people that are responsible for it.

Last edited by lo : 07 July 2011 at 07:40 AM.
 
  07 July 2011
gee good luck denis if your're making money from scripts. I just code to make life easier for myself. Is there a lot of money selling maxscripts? Are there maxscript millionaires out there?
I'm happy for people to look at whatever I come up with , use it, improve it...whatever...let's not get above ourselves here...it's just scripting...it's not c sharp compiling applications...
 
  07 July 2011
Originally Posted by floatingworld: it's not c sharp compiling applications...


A lot of it is starting to be. But what's the difference between precompiled code copyrights and realtime compiled code copyrights? They're both code...
 
  07 July 2011
I think the bigger problem is discerning when a block of code can be copyrighted. What constitutes an "original" piece of code?

Denis, would you consider the on-the-fly c# compilation function that you love to use to be original code (either yours or someone elses) ?
The concept is original... but the code is just using prebuilt dotnet compilation libraries...
 
  07 July 2011
yes there is a creative aspect to coding....there's a guy who was just mucking around with incrementally moving pivot points of objects and copying, rotating, animating linked it to some audio controllers......he came up with some interesting stuff, wrapped it up in a thing called superflow, and although the code is absolutely basic and elementary, he did amazing things with it. That's originality...the mechanics of the coding is absolutely secondary ...

Last edited by floatingworld : 07 July 2011 at 09:01 AM.
 
  07 July 2011
Originally Posted by floatingworld: yes there is a creative aspect to coding....there's a guy who was just mucking around with incrementally moving pivot points of objects and copying, rotating, animating linked it to some audio controllers......he came up with some interesting stuff, wrapped it up in a thing called superflow, and although the code is absolutely basic and elementary, he did amazing things with it. That's originality...the mechanics of the coding is absolutely secondary ...


That doesn't answer the question... if we take the example of Superflow... what part of the tool is copyrighted, or original? The idea of a chain of objects set up in hierarchy? Linking it to an audio controller?
 
  07 July 2011
inevitable.., somebody encrypted already free/open mxs code but claim it as original somehow.. probably to get some credit, most people wants recognition..

1. Ideas.
Makes no sense to reverse rights over it. similar ideas are way too common. but despite that, its common that people steal ideas to claim some kind of originality, happens all the time.
2. research/solutions.
Once public, no reason to claim rights over it, except authorship
3. implementation.
Too easy to modify it and claim false originality. people does this all the time(unethical). Unless its evidently copy/pasted | or similar, not much to do.
4. originality(discovery /authorship).
The most important IMO, as it gives you the credit you deserve. for me it's a matter of hierarchy. but proving you are an original creator, does not mean that somebody else can't have the same idea, originally.

anyway, I don't believe on things like, I was the first to do this tool, so I have rights over the idea.because many people had old ideas not made public explicitly , but shared somehow. Its logically expected that many people would try to hide this fact, for personal benefit.

All this is identical to 'the use of tutorials/internet'.
if you somehow force a graduated cg student to describe everything derived from tutorials/dvds/internet/copycat teachers/step by step stuff..., most demo reels would be tagged as disappointing, because they are not original at all, just copy/pasted.
good if they wanna be manpower, otherwise not hard to describe most of them as unethical.

but it's "commonly accepted", "because everybody does it"(and ethics is defined by groups of people with common purposes, and not because of mathematical definitions of right and wrong)

this is a world popularized with opportunism but not dominated by it


.
 
  07 July 2011
good points, I agree with just about everything you said.

Originally Posted by Ruramuq: but proving you are an original creator, does not mean that somebody else can't have the same idea, originally.

Tell me about it, no matter what I'll post Denis will claim to have already written a superior tool years ago
 
  07 July 2011
Originally Posted by lo: That doesn't answer the question... if we take the example of Superflow... what part of the tool is copyrighted, or original? The idea of a chain of objects set up in hierarchy? Linking it to an audio controller?

Well, this kind of discussions never change anything, but just by chance I worked on this Superflow script and feel need to reply here. First to say, I work on in-door scripts and never made my own commercial scripts, mostly because a lot of people see something evil in this (!) So, this script was exception and I was hired to write it and has a lot of doubts before starting. The original idea about hierarchy (if this even correct), is Public and Free. What Ian Clammer intended to sell is the product. If even this has no sense then yep, kill everyone who made anything commercial (including programming).

[edit] Just to append that I agree in general with what Ruramuq said, expect the last conclusion about ethics. If we agree with this we s'd reject the Law as well and go to live in anarchy.
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Last edited by Panayot : 07 July 2011 at 02:14 PM.
 
  07 July 2011
Just to be clear, I have no gripe with Superflow or any other commercial scripts, nor did I intend to say that nothing about them is original or creative.
My point was that it is a very blurry line between public domain common knowledge and original copyrightable code.
 
  07 July 2011
Originally Posted by lo: Just to be clear, I have no gripe with Superflow or any other commercial scripts, nor did I intend to say that nothing about them is original or creative.
My point was that it is a very blurry line between public domain common knowledge and original copyrightable code.
Ok, dont worry, I hope my thought above is clear too.
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* everyone can win previous war
 
  07 July 2011
i don't have anything against commercial tools. for almost 20 years in this business i sold myself a lot of tools. because every tool that i made was paid by a company which i worked for.
i'm not against of the using somebody else's code and not against when anyone uses mine. if you put any piece of your code into an open resource you automatically loosing any copyright to it, and you have to expect that the code might be freely used without any credit given to you. it's absolutely right and there is nothing to do with it.

but... if anyone puts some free code into his own, hides this fact by encrypting, and sells it... in this case may me talk about some ethic norms.
 
  07 July 2011
Originally Posted by denisT: i don't have anything against commercial tools. for almost 20 years in this business i sold myself a lot of tools. because every tool that i made was paid by a company which i worked for.
i'm not against of the using somebody else's code and not against when anyone uses mine. if you put any piece of your code into an open resource you automatically loosing any copyright to it, and you have to expect that the code might be freely used without any credit given to you. it's absolutely right and there is nothing to do with it.

but... if anyone puts some free code into his own, hides this fact by encrypting, and sells it... in this case may me talk about some ethic norms.
I'm with you on this one, maybe ever most of the folks here too, but whats next? What we can do about?
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* everyone can win previous war
 
  07 July 2011
Originally Posted by Panayot: I'm with you on this one, maybe ever most of the folks here too, but whats next? What we can do about?


i just want to let some people know that i don't like when my code taken from any free resource is used by somebody in a public tool but in an encrypted form. i don't like to be involved in any commerce without knowing that.
using my code makes us 'partners', and i have a right to share my code and the way of its using. so i don't see any ethic problem to decrypt whole code and post it for an easy access.
 
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