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View Poll Results: Would you rig this or kick it back?
Yes, it is modeled wrong and needs to be fixed before rigging. 20 71.43%
No, the model is fine and can easily be rigged. 1 3.57%
Yes, I would kick it back and you are right in the debate. 7 25.00%
No, I wouldn't kick it back and your friend is right in the debate. 0 0%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-03-2009, 05:04 AM   #1
DanHaffner
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Would you rig this, or kick it back to the modeler?

Me and a classmate got into a pretty heated debate about this model. My argument was if this was handed to the rigger, he would kick it back to the modeler to have the arms and palms fixed. As you can see in the pics, the arms are bent, the fingers are so close together they are actually all touching each other, the forearm is modeled twisted, the wrist are rotated and the palm is facing forward at an upward angle.

His argument is there is nothing wrong with the pose and that modelers are modeling character's in whatever pose they feel like and it's the job of the rigger to deal with the pose that is handed to them, and the rigger shouldn't kick a model back for it not being in a T or A pose. That the modelers are modeling all their character's in a "resting" position where all the joints are rotated in some degree and it's the job of the rigger to rig the model accordingly.

So I am coming here to see what your all's opinion on the whole debate is, here are the screen shots of the model that started this entire mess.





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Old 02-03-2009, 05:51 AM   #2
eek
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Charles Looker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHaffner
Me and a classmate got into a pretty heated debate about this model. My argument was if this was handed to the rigger, he would kick it back to the modeler to have the arms and palms fixed. As you can see in the pics, the arms are bent, the fingers are so close together they are actually all touching each other, the forearm is modeled twisted, the wrist are rotated and the palm is facing forward at an upward angle.

His argument is there is nothing wrong with the pose and that modelers are modeling character's in whatever pose they feel like and it's the job of the rigger to deal with the pose that is handed to them, and the rigger shouldn't kick a model back for it not being in a T or A pose. That the modelers are modeling all their character's in a "resting" position where all the joints are rotated in some degree and it's the job of the rigger to rig the model accordingly.


Yes I would kick it straight back to the modeller, the position of the arms is pretty horrible, its not only rotated, theres a twist in there and its rotating back - basically a TD would have to rig it in a twisted state.

His point of modelling how he likes is absolutely laughable, and I would have no quarms of send it back to get fixed. The model needs to be in the "bike riding' pose or a soft T pose, neutral throughout. I would kick it back not only for being in a wrong pose, but for bad topology, edge loop, anything that would break the deformation, even going as far as physically breaking the model to show where the fault lies. These arent static models, they have to move - if a modeller is intending on breaking into the game or film industry they need to know how to model for deformation and movement and know that things will change; its a saying i learnt studying animation 'kill your babies' - the same applies to rigging and animation if it does'nt work, fix it.

The key is your modelling for articulation.
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Last edited by eek : 02-03-2009 at 05:55 AM.
 
Old 02-03-2009, 06:05 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eek
Yes I would kick it straight back to the modeller, the position of the arms is pretty horrible, its not only rotated, theres a twist in there and its rotating back - basically a TD would have to rig it in a twisted state.

His point of modelling how he likes is absolutely laughable, and I would have no quarms of send it back to get fixed. The model needs to be in the "bike riding' pose or a soft T pose, neutral throughout. I would kick it back not only for being in a wrong pose, but for bad topology, edge loop, anything that would break the deformation, even going as far as physically breaking the model to show where the fault lies. These arent static models, they have to move - if a modeller is intending on breaking into the game or film industry they need to know how to model for deformation and movement and know that things will change; its a saying i learnt studying animation 'kill your babies' - the same applies to rigging and animation if it does'nt work, fix it.

The key is your modelling for articulation.




I agree. The modeler needs to work in cooperation with the rigger to get the best deformations out of his or her model. This model just wouldn't make the cut unless he or she expects a problematic rig.
 
Old 02-03-2009, 07:18 AM   #4
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Ditto! I agree with the replies above.

His idea of what a modeler and rigger does is a little stupid. Firstly, this character is not in a 'resting' pose. Secondly, it's the job of everyone on the team to get the best results on the final product. This means working together from concept to completion through all disciplines. So if a model can be created to make it easier for a rigger then do it. Likewise if a rigger can make it easier for an animator, it gets done! Team work! Wooo!

So, yeah, I would kick it back for sure due to the pose, and a change on the topology also!
 
Old 02-03-2009, 09:23 AM   #5
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correct. It's all wrong. The topology is horrible too. I won't rig it if it was me. Waste of time.
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Old 02-03-2009, 10:56 AM   #6
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I would kick it back for all the same reasons.
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Old 02-03-2009, 11:24 AM   #7
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calm down

just to make the critic not too bad , for "someone" , who modeled this mesh ... the form itself is pretty nice and good work , but the "artist" must make himself clear , that "his piece of art will later also be in the hands of other artists" and that it is "very important" to teamplay and accept critics and to follow some very important guidelines according to finally achieving the best deformation results .

you are students and everybody is still learning , and nothing will be perfect from the beginning , so you should really stick together now and think about "what can be changed in an easy and fast way" - and most important to look yourself into each others eyes and say , that you are in it together .

in this certain case , i would ask myself , in how many shots , does this character appear ? and if he is a main-actor ? ... if it is just a background-character and a small-project , i would certainly take half a day of work and put this character in the bind-pose , i would like to have , and then pass it back , to fine-tune-correct the model .

NEXT MODEL NEEDS TO BE "posed different" !!! and you need to show your partner , base-models , which are industry-conform .

show your friend this link www.hippydrome.com , and he will learn a lot for the future

--------------------
most important aspect:
i would try to calm down the debate . i know , there is a lot of energy and work already in this model . so just making it bad , and showing the mistakes , is not very polite and constructive .

i personally like the silhouette of the character and the anatomical-intelligent-form , also if some loops are not 100% perfect i think you should also tell your partner , that he has done great work , but he needs to do some more or less "easy-to-correct" changes . that is much more "motivating"

having a happy working-atmosphere is certainly more important than having "pixar-like-state-of-the-art" results ( which by the way - would never be possible to achieve for a team of students )


--------------------

working on low-res-games-characters , i know , how important a good topology is - and
for high-res-characters it is even more important , as the vertecies are closer to each other .

professional modelers always "show" their models in certain poses , but the basemodel itself , will always be in a T-Pose ( or better in my eyes is an A-Pose / e.g. arms like 30-60 degree down and the legs slightly spread - or as already mentioned a bicycle-driver-pose ... with the legs raised to the front about 45 degree and the knees bent - a GOOD MIDDLE-position , from which all body-parts can be deformed in all directions - this pose will look a little bit strange , but leads to the best "1st layer-deformation" - before adding additional corrective shapes / muscle-deformers and so on )

---------------------

for my experience with short-films and student-work is , that nobody has the full-experience to deal with a production from the early beginning . everybody learns and being tolerant and forgiving each other their mistakes is always better than being angry at each other and finally go apart as individuals instead of building a TEAM .

often things ( in student-projects ) need to be done twice - and i tell that from both point-of-views , both parties will often have to deal with changes .

------------------

think about this : later , you as the rigger might step into the same discussion with your animator , and what would you wish then for yourself ? an animator who sais "it is ok for now , but please think about it in the future" or someone who sais "i wont animate this" ?

i would never "just kick back" any work .

Last edited by tonytouch : 02-03-2009 at 11:28 AM.
 
Old 02-03-2009, 12:56 PM   #8
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Send it back to the modeling ? Oh no ! I would take it back to the modeling myself and have '' A little talk '' with the modeler about proper modeling positions.

Yet, before the modeling process should start, the TD and Modelers should have a meeting about the production's requirement to make sure that this can of thing won't happen.

Oh, and by looking at the first pic, it seams like the world origin is not in the character's center : not healty
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Last edited by EricDLegare : 02-03-2009 at 01:02 PM.
 
Old 02-03-2009, 01:05 PM   #9
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonytouch
just to make the critic not too bad , for "someone" , who modeled this mesh ... the form itself is pretty nice and good work , but the "artist" must make himself clear , that "his piece of art will later also be in the hands of other artists" and that it is "very important" to teamplay and accept critics and to follow some very important guidelines according to finally achieving the best deformation results .

you are students and everybody is still learning , and nothing will be perfect from the beginning , so you should really stick together now and think about "what can be changed in an easy and fast way" - and most important to look yourself into each others eyes and say , that you are in it together .

in this certain case , i would ask myself , in how many shots , does this character appear ? and if he is a main-actor ? ... if it is just a background-character and a small-project , i would certainly take half a day of work and put this character in the bind-pose , i would like to have , and then pass it back , to fine-tune-correct the model .

NEXT MODEL NEEDS TO BE "posed different" !!! and you need to show your partner , base-models , which are industry-conform .

show your friend this link www.hippydrome.com , and he will learn a lot for the future

--------------------
most important aspect:
i would try to calm down the debate . i know , there is a lot of energy and work already in this model . so just making it bad , and showing the mistakes , is not very polite and constructive .

i personally like the silhouette of the character and the anatomical-intelligent-form , also if some loops are not 100% perfect i think you should also tell your partner , that he has done great work , but he needs to do some more or less "easy-to-correct" changes . that is much more "motivating"

having a happy working-atmosphere is certainly more important than having "pixar-like-state-of-the-art" results ( which by the way - would never be possible to achieve for a team of students )


--------------------

working on low-res-games-characters , i know , how important a good topology is - and
for high-res-characters it is even more important , as the vertecies are closer to each other .

professional modelers always "show" their models in certain poses , but the basemodel itself , will always be in a T-Pose ( or better in my eyes is an A-Pose / e.g. arms like 30-60 degree down and the legs slightly spread - or as already mentioned a bicycle-driver-pose ... with the legs raised to the front about 45 degree and the knees bent - a GOOD MIDDLE-position , from which all body-parts can be deformed in all directions - this pose will look a little bit strange , but leads to the best "1st layer-deformation" - before adding additional corrective shapes / muscle-deformers and so on )

---------------------

for my experience with short-films and student-work is , that nobody has the full-experience to deal with a production from the early beginning . everybody learns and being tolerant and forgiving each other their mistakes is always better than being angry at each other and finally go apart as individuals instead of building a TEAM .

often things ( in student-projects ) need to be done twice - and i tell that from both point-of-views , both parties will often have to deal with changes .

------------------

think about this : later , you as the rigger might step into the same discussion with your animator , and what would you wish then for yourself ? an animator who sais "it is ok for now , but please think about it in the future" or someone who sais "i wont animate this" ?

i would never "just kick back" any work .


Hey, thank you very much for the constructive criticism for the people involved in this project. It is very important to be as courteous as possible and positive critiques always creates a better work environment. The people you work with are part of your team, and you'll have to be around each other a LONG time throughout the pipeline of your project. So just keep this in mind when talking with anyone in your team.
 
Old 02-03-2009, 01:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGaines
It is very important to be as courteous as possible and positive critiques always creates a better work environment.


With that you have to be careful, people often forget that they are not their work, when a critique is adressed to their work, it's their work being critiqued, not them.

People tend to be emotional towards their work, you must be careful with that because you will get rude critiques in a production environement, you have to learn how to deal with those, and the way to do this is to understand that the critiques are addresed to the work you just did and not to your skills. ( Of course, if someone just drop by and shoot ''You are the world's worst modeler'' then of course, you've got a bad coworker, but if he says ''This modeling position is inapropriate for our production'' well... You'll have to take it objectivly and do it.)

''You are not your work...''
- An Art teacher once told me after kicking my ass about a painting... I really learned that day.
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Old 02-03-2009, 01:56 PM   #11
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Very well said tony. Though I just want to clarify that neither me or the guy I mention above are on a team or even working on a project together. He as a modeler and me as a rigger is what sparked this conversation and the model above was what was the main focus of the debate.

I agree with everything you said and appreciate your thoughts and the time it took to make that post, just wanted to clarify the full situation is all.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricDLegare
Oh, and by looking at the first pic, it seams like the world origin is not in the character's center : not healty


Hey Eric,

What's the deal with having the characters center at world origin?
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Old 02-03-2009, 06:17 PM   #13
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Wink

I would kick this shit back I also am glad this discussion has come up between the students so modelers can see how riggers feel, so that riggers can form opinion about models and animator can sit back and get ready to break your rig :P

I agree 200% with all of the comments which were brought up so far. I just want to add that the purpose of the model was for the students to have a not ideal situation for your final project in Character Rigging, and how you would approach a problem presented to you.

As the modeler of the model I thought this whole thread was Interesting and I hope it can be useful in the future if anyone come across a similar situation .

Click Here for obj

Kindest regards,

rayfigs

Last edited by rayfigs : 02-03-2009 at 07:19 PM. Reason: adding file
 
Old 02-03-2009, 07:17 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlefevre
Hey Eric,

What's the deal with having the characters center at world origin?


Symetry for Mirroring Rig controls and skin

( Of course I meant only on the ''Lateral Axis'' which would need the character to move just a little but to his right...
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricDLegare
Symetry for Mirroring Rig controls and skin

( Of course I meant only on the ''Lateral Axis'' which would need the character to move just a little but to his right...


Ah, yea, that makes sense. I wasn't sure as to why you mentioned the models center being at the origin (as opposed to the model centered on the lateral axis). I've seen models positioned like that before, but couldn't figure out what the purpose of it was.

Thanks
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