3ds Max rigging questions dump... I have a lot of questions...

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Old 05 May 2007   #1
3ds Max rigging questions dump... new question (5/29/07)...

My new question... (5/29/2007)

hey guys!

new question for you all. up to the challenge?

I have an arm that is being set up for both IK & FK use. I'm *really close on this one.

The problem is:
When I move the hand controller, it moves normally like an IK controller. This is good! This is what I want.
When I rotate the FK controllers (the pink circles), they work normally. This is also good.
So far, everything is working exactly how I want it.

However...

When I move the hand using the IK hand controller, it indeed works, but it DOES NOT bring the FK circle controllers along with it. The FK controllers stay behind, much like the eblow swivels. They still function, so it'll still rotate the arm when I rotate them, but I can't get the FK controllers to actually follow the arm when the IK controller moves the hand.
How do I fix this?

I've tried creating an Fk/Ik switcher, but for the life of me couldn't get it to work.

If I could just get the FK controller on the elbow to follow the arm when the IK moves the hand, I'd be very happy. I've tried constraining the FK Controllers to different parts of the arm, helper objects, etc... but they end up flipping and distorting the whole arm.







Any help you can give is greatly appreciated!

------------------------------------------------------------
question on 5-13-2007

My knowledge in 3ds Max rigging with bones is severly limited. I am trying to create my own rigg that does everything I need it to do, because Biped doesn't quite work as well as I like. Also, I'm just trying to make myself more marketable by being able to create production-quality riggs in addition to my main focus (animation).

I have been following some fantastic tutorials online, and bought 2 books on the subject, but they don't quite cover some of the obscure things that happen while I'm following along with a tutorial.

My first question:

When I'm in the beginning and just laid out a skeleton, I notice that bones will do this bizarre scaling/skewing thing whenever I rotate them. How do I stop the bones from stretching whenever I rotate them? (Yes, I tried just creating all the bones in 'top' view and using local euler control, and using the 'lock scale' feature in the Link Info under Heirarchy).



Second question:

Often times, a bone doesn't rotate at the end of the joint, but will rotate in the MIDDLE of the bone in a very unrealistic manner. How do I change the pivot point so it rotates properly at the end/start of the bone? (Yes, I tried adjusting the pivot point in the hierachy panel, but that ends up moving the entire bone chain itself).

Third Question:

For whatever reason, bones tend to get slightly off rotation when building the skeleton and linking the joints together. Is there a way to readjust independently so they that they are oriented correctly without affecting all the other bones in the heirarchy?



I'm sure I'll have a ton of more questions and will only post them in this thread instead of making a new one for each question.

I appreciate any feedback or advice from those who take the time to help me out. It's very much appreciated.

Also, I just ordered a few rigging DVDs from the CGAcademy. Has anyone already seen these?
Rigging FK Spine, Leg, and Foot by Paul Neale
http://www.cg-academy.net/pages/top...ermediate_1.php

Rigging Spline IK, Hand, and Arm by Paul Neale
http://www.cg-academy.net/pages/top...ermediate_1.php


The goal of the rigg I'm trying to create would be similar to Character Studio biped, but with stretchy/squashy limbs, and a spline IK for the spinke instead of an FK driven spine.

Thanks for reading! And for any helpful suggestions you can give me!

Last edited by BigMouth : 05 May 2007 at 05:08 AM.
 
Old 05 May 2007   #2
Thumbs up

Well, I'd say go for the BONE TOOL, in wich you'll find the BONE EDIT MODE might be of help to you


Non-uniform scaling might not get along well with rotation too...



And Paul Neale's DVDs are AWESOME
__________________
EulerRnD.com
 
Old 05 May 2007   #3
1) Your bones skew when they rotate because there is non-uniform scale applied to them. To modify the position and orientation of bones after you've created them use the "Bone Tools" found in the Character menu. Click on "Bone Edit Mode" then use the move and rotate tools to position the bones. Use the width and height to change their size.

The transform locks only stop users from modifying them. Expressions and scripts will still transform objects.

A favorite tool of mine is Rigging Army Knife from Wahooney. It like the "Bone Tools" on steriods.

2) Your bone rotates from the center because you have Max set to "use selection center". There's a button in the middle of the main toolbar with two boxes and a dot. Change it to the two boxes with two dots. This will use your objects pivot instead of the selection center.

Note once you turn on the animate button, that button gets greyed out, and object always rotate from there pivot.

3) Again "Bone Edit Mode" will allow you to do this.

The Paul Neale DVD's are excellent and Paul himself hangs out in this forum

As for spines. I never really liked spline IK spines. I prefer a spine that can blend between a full FK spine and non-inherit rotation FK spine.
__________________
Juan Martinez | Blog | Animator
 
Old 05 May 2007   #4
Originally Posted by martinez: 1) Your bones skew when they rotate because there is non-uniform scale applied to them. To modify the position and orientation of bones after you've created them use the "Bone Tools" found in the Character menu. Click on "Bone Edit Mode" then use the move and rotate tools to position the bones. Use the width and height to change their size.

The transform locks only stop users from modifying them. Expressions and scripts will still transform objects.

A favorite tool of mine is Rigging Army Knife from Wahooney. It like the "Bone Tools" on steriods.

2) Your bone rotates from the center because you have Max set to "use selection center". There's a button in the middle of the main toolbar with two boxes and a dot. Change it to the two boxes with two dots. This will use your objects pivot instead of the selection center.

Note once you turn on the animate button, that button gets greyed out, and object always rotate from there pivot.

3) Again "Bone Edit Mode" will allow you to do this.

The Paul Neale DVD's are excellent and Paul himself hangs out in this forum

As for spines. I never really liked spline IK spines. I prefer a spine that can blend between a full FK spine and non-inherit rotation FK spine.


__________________
EulerRnD.com
 
Old 05 May 2007   #5
you need to reset the identity matrix on the bones to fix the skew, as there working in the transform space with non-uniform scale. i.e the unit lengths are not equal which will cause the bones matrix not to be othogonalized.

for example you could try: $.transform = (orthogonalize $.transform) which will make the vectors of the transform of the bone perpendicular to each other (90 degrees)
__________________
Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer.


 
Old 05 May 2007   #6
wow, that was quick! you guys rock. Thanks for the helpful tips, and Martinez that was very detailed and very helpful.


btw... you're at ensemble? where are they located? i'm at 7 Studios in Santa Monica. It's not my responsibility to rigg, but I just want to learn how because it's something I've always been intriqued and intimidated by.

i can't wait to get my hands on Paul Neale's dvds.
 
Old 05 May 2007   #7
complicared linking trees also makes this issue !!
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woo.. long way to go !!..
 
Old 05 May 2007   #8
Hey all,

Thanks again for the replies. I am still having problems with bones skewing. I made sure that all the bones had uniform scale and they still morph weirdly.

I notice that they bones will usually rotate without any problems in certain axis's, but not in others.

Here's what I am doing:
I create the bones in 'top view' with 'local' coordinates and uniform scale selected. I adjust the bones in 'bone edit mode' to make it fit properly with the mesh. But whenever I rotate the bones (with Bone Edit off), to make sure that they're linking together correctly, something always ends up stretching or skewing awkardly.

Any other trouble shooting tips is greatly appreciatd.


Last edited by BigMouth : 05 May 2007 at 12:59 AM.
 
Old 05 May 2007   #9
Check scales of all the bones in the heirarchy, not only the ones that are skewing.
(Use the numerical transfrom floater to check). It has to be a non-uniform scaling issue, as mentioned by others in this thread.

Keep the scale transform type-in floater open by right clicking on the scale Icon.
Select the last bone on the finger, and walk up the heirarchy. While doing so, keep an eye on the scale transform floater, to see if there is any bone which shows a non 100, 100, 100 scale.
It could be that the hand bone (wrist/palm ) is the culprit....

If you find none, then post the file :-)
 
Old 05 May 2007   #10
NEVER EVER EVER and NEVER scale bones or any object....even uniform scaling

you can try this script to filter objects that are scaled. scaled objects will be selected

select (for o in objects where o.scale != [1,1,1] collect o)

Last edited by zzama : 05 May 2007 at 09:59 AM.
 
Old 05 May 2007   #11
PEN wrote a script which does similar and more.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthr...p?f=6&t=489378&
 
Old 05 May 2007   #12
oh, that's sweet!
 
Old 05 May 2007   #13
Actualy just checking for the scale parameters on an object isn't enough to tell if it has been scaled. It will work much of the time but not all the time.

The tool that I wrote will catch all objects that have been scaled and report if they have scale or have been mirrored. It allow for resetting bones as well as all geometry. It is NOT ment to be used on rigged characters but it will work on simple hierarchy chains like a bone chain or any other objects linked together. Once you start to add constraints and IK solvers it will just make a mess of it all as there are way to many considerations to take into account to make it practical.

Eek, although your answer is quite correct I have the feeling that it will go so far over the head of the person that posted this as to not be any help at all. In my DVD's I shead a bit of light on what Eek was talking about but only enough for you to understand what you should and should not do. If you really want to understand what is going on I suggest Bobos, The Matrix Explained. This is not for raw beginners and knowledge of Max script is a must.
__________________
Paul Neale
http://paulneale.com
 
Old 05 May 2007   #14
Originally Posted by PEN: Actualy just checking for the scale parameters on an object isn't enough to tell if it has been scaled. It will work much of the time but not all the time.

The tool that I wrote will catch all objects that have been scaled and report if they have scale or have been mirrored. It allow for resetting bones as well as all geometry. It is NOT ment to be used on rigged characters but it will work on simple hierarchy chains like a bone chain or any other objects linked together. Once you start to add constraints and IK solvers it will just make a mess of it all as there are way to many considerations to take into account to make it practical.

Eek, although your answer is quite correct I have the feeling that it will go so far over the head of the person that posted this as to not be any help at all. In my DVD's I shead a bit of light on what Eek was talking about but only enough for you to understand what you should and should not do. If you really want to understand what is going on I suggest Bobos, The Matrix Explained. This is not for raw beginners and knowledge of Max script is a must.


Quoted for agreement - i need a translator
__________________
Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer.


 
Old 05 May 2007   #15
Originally Posted by PEN: Actualy just checking for the scale parameters on an object isn't enough to tell if it has been scaled. It will work much of the time but not all the time.

The tool that I wrote will catch all objects that have been scaled and report if they have scale or have been mirrored. It allow for resetting bones as well as all geometry. It is NOT ment to be used on rigged characters but it will work on simple hierarchy chains like a bone chain or any other objects linked together. Once you start to add constraints and IK solvers it will just make a mess of it all as there are way to many considerations to take into account to make it practical.

Eek, although your answer is quite correct I have the feeling that it will go so far over the head of the person that posted this as to not be any help at all. In my DVD's I shead a bit of light on what Eek was talking about but only enough for you to understand what you should and should not do. If you really want to understand what is going on I suggest Bobos, The Matrix Explained. This is not for raw beginners and knowledge of Max script is a must.


PEN,

I just recieved your rigging DVDs today! I'm watching them right now and it's blowing my mind. Yah, I got my bone skew problem fixed already watching the first 20 minutes of your tutorial DVD. This is golden stuff for anyone interested in approaching rigging. Top notch man
 
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