CGTalk > Main > News
Login register
Thread Closed share thread « Previous Thread | Next Thread »  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-16-2006, 01:25 PM   #1
RobertoOrtiz
[Forum Leader]
 
RobertoOrtiz's Avatar
CGTalk Forum Leader
portfolio
Roberto Ortiz
Illustrator/ Modeler
Washington DC, USA
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 31,900
Send a message via MSN to RobertoOrtiz
John Carmack Discuss Mega Texturing

Quote:
"One of the most respected and well-known game developers in the world, John Carmack hardly needs any introduction. Having mastered the skill of game programming, Carmack co-founded developer id Software, and has also worked on such classic series as Doom, Quake and Wolfenstein 3D.

In this Question & Answer with Carmack, he discusses the new MegaTexture technology, which will be used in the upcoming Enemy Territory: Quake Wars for PC. Definitely a worthy read for any programming, designing or general development enthusiast, as well as any gamer slightly interested in the development process behind games.


Q1:
What is MegaTexturing technology?

Answer: MegaTexture technology is something that addresses resource limitations in one particular aspect of graphics. The core idea of it is that when you start looking at outdoor rendering and how you want to do terrain and things in general, people almost always wind up with some kind of cross-fade blended approach where you tile your textures over and blend between them and add little bits of detail here and there. A really important thing to realize about just generally tiling textures, that weíre so used to accepting it in games, is that when you have one repeated pattern over a bunch of geometry, the texture tiling and repeating is really just a very, very specialized form of data compression where itís allowing you to take a smaller amount of data and have it replicated over multiple surfaces, or multiple parts of the same surface in a game since you generally donít have enough memory to be able to have the exact texture that youíd like everywhere.
"

>>LINK<<

-R
__________________
LW FREE MODELS:FOR REAL Home Anatomy Thread
FXWARS
:Daily Sketch Forum:HCR Modeling
This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government

 
Old 05-16-2006, 01:38 PM   #2
mummey
I can make gifs too!
 
mummey's Avatar
portfolio
Brian Walsh
Code Monkey
Santa Monica, USA
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,158
Just yet another use for fragment programs. Lucky for us, Carmack isn't the type of guy that patents any thought that pops into his head.
__________________
Life is too short to work a job you hate.
Opinions presented DO NOT represent those of my employer.
"This place smells like boy!" ~RebeccaK
 
Old 05-16-2006, 03:15 PM   #3
PyRoT
Frequenter
Tomasz Zurek
Australia
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 295
Send a message via ICQ to PyRoT Send a message via MSN to PyRoT
I wonder why procedural textures aren't used. They have simple variables that can be adjusted to output X level of quality at Y dstance (I think). Then instead of these 32000*32000 textures, you could have a bunch of algorythms do a better job.
Spore has beatiful landscapes using procedural technology. In any case, you could still have room for artists by simply blending textures with precedural maps.

Tomek
__________________
Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so.
-Bertrand Russell
 
Old 05-16-2006, 07:43 PM   #4
SaucyJack
Upstanding Gentleman
portfolio
Graham Kelly
Artist
Bizarre Creations
United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 140
Thats an interesting point raised by Tomek. I always thought some kind of procedural solution would be the way fowrard for landscape texturing. Certainly in the future when we are rendering individual blades of grass rather than a grass texture. I certainly wouldn't fancy having to create a 32,000x32,000 texture. My 1024's take long enough.
__________________
...And Jesus asked him, saying, "What is thy name?" And he said SaucyJack, Nice to meet you...
 
Old 05-16-2006, 08:00 PM   #5
inneractive
Frequenter
 
inneractive's Avatar
Joe Bird
Starving Artist
SF Bay Area, USA
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by PyRoT
I wonder why procedural textures aren't used.


The method you mentioned still limits the artist to texture sizes (blending texture maps over procedurally generated textures). It also limits the artist by taking away some of the control and putting it into the hands of the CPU. Plus it does not seem to be a competeting technology, but one that could complement the procedural approach if needed.

With Carmack's method artists could even use procedural techniques to generate the initial texture map, then go in and detail specific areas of interest by hand. I like how he says the latest iteration of the technology goes beyond just landscapes and can be used on buildings, objects, and characters as well.
 
Old 05-16-2006, 11:28 PM   #6
chadtheartist
Know my Mutiny!
 
chadtheartist's Avatar
yap
USA
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,433
Hmmm... really interesting stuff. I'm interested in seeing how this actually works, and why it's so much better.
 
Old 05-16-2006, 11:43 PM   #7
Simon
A lot of nothing to say.
 
Simon's Avatar
portfolio
Simon Roth
Games developer
Oxford, United Kingdom
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,641
Send a message via MSN to Simon
the more and more detail the engines can handle... the more and more work for the artists. Soon enough people are going to be wanting miles of gameworld detailed down to each little peble. I think studio time is going to become the new bottleneck for Gd's.

..And I though going into environment building was going to be easy. :/
__________________
MaiaGame.com Linkedin Twitter
 
Old 05-16-2006, 11:54 PM   #8
BillSpradlin
Nothing to see here
 
BillSpradlin's Avatar
Bill Spradlin
Spectral Liberation
Digital Domain
Los Angeles, USA
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadtheartist
Hmmm... really interesting stuff. I'm interested in seeing how this actually works, and why it's so much better.


"Q4: How is the MegaTexture a major step forward for game graphics?

Answer: My core comment here is that any repeating use of a texture is just very specialized data compression. Any time you have one set of texture data, and itís present in more than one place on the screen, itís really an approximation to what an ideal infinite resource video game would provide. Because in the real world, there arenít any repeatsóeven things that look like they repeat, like bricks or dry wall, are uniquely different. The subtle differences that you get are the things that distinguish a rendering, especially a game rendering, from something thatís very realistic.

The MegaTexture allows us to have terrain in QUAKE Wars that does not require any repeated textures for resource limitation reasons. There may still be some areas where a texture is repeated just because they didnít feel like doing anything better, but there was no resource limitation that encouraged them or required them to do that. They are perfectly capable of having an artist go in and add 10 million little tiny touches to the level if they chose to do so. Itís taken it from being a resource constraint to something that becomes a design trade off.

Q5: Does MegaTexturing technology bring any specific limitations with it?

Answer: No. Thereís no limit to dynamically changing it. Thatís one of the neat things about it Ė to the graphics engine, it looks like youíre just texturing on top of arbitrary geometry. You can move it around and all of that. With the technology in Enemy Territory: QUAKE Wars, there are some issues with deforming the texture coordinates too much. Youíll get areas that are blurred more than you would expect with a conventional texturing, and thatís something thatís fixed in my newer rev of technology.

There are some minor things you have to worry a little bit about. If you stretched up too steep a cliff slide, there would be some blurring involved there, even if you adjusted the texture coordinate somewhat. And you can crutch around that a little bit. Thatís also a problem thatís been fixed by a newer rev of technology that weíve got right now."


That pretty well sums it up =)
__________________
Light & Stuff
Think for yourself, question authority.
 
Old 05-17-2006, 12:17 AM   #9
chadtheartist
Know my Mutiny!
 
chadtheartist's Avatar
yap
USA
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,433
HAHA! I literally meant seeing how it works first hand. Not just reading about it. But that was definitely funny! lol
 
Old 05-17-2006, 12:56 AM   #10
CGmonkey
____________________
 
CGmonkey's Avatar
portfolio
B S
Norway, Norway
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by PyRoT
I wonder why procedural textures aren't used. They have simple variables that can be adjusted to output X level of quality at Y dstance (I think). Then instead of these 32000*32000 textures, you could have a bunch of algorythms do a better job.
Spore has beatiful landscapes using procedural technology. In any case, you could still have room for artists by simply blending textures with precedural maps.

Tomek


Procedural textures can't just exist out of nothng, it still generate alot of memory. So in a way, it's even more expensive than "hand made" textures because you need to waste precious processor power and still get the same texturememory.
__________________
 
Old 05-17-2006, 02:51 AM   #11
PyRoT
Frequenter
Tomasz Zurek
Australia
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 295
Send a message via ICQ to PyRoT Send a message via MSN to PyRoT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arius
Procedural textures can't just exist out of nothng, it still generate alot of memory. So in a way, it's even more expensive than "hand made" textures because you need to waste precious processor power and still get the same texturememory.


Are you sure? Wouldn't the procedural map simply generate a texture based on distance / pixels? This would mean tehre's not as much loading to do. I know it takes more proccessing power but I doubt large texture maps are the way of the future. It seems even in some current games, the ground is often very low quality (Check those quake wars screens in teh interview - I hope they don't represent this MegaTexture revolution). The amount of proccessing power and memory reuired to generate procedural maps of that kind of quality would be very small so you could increase the quality a lot and get really nice terrain.

Tomek
__________________
Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so.
-Bertrand Russell

Last edited by PyRoT : 05-17-2006 at 02:54 AM.
 
Old 05-17-2006, 08:30 AM   #12
darkjedi1929
Know-it-All
 
darkjedi1929's Avatar
portfolio
Mukund Dhananjay
Unreal + VR Developer
India
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by PyRoT
Are you sure? Wouldn't the procedural map simply generate a texture based on distance / pixels? This would mean tehre's not as much loading to do. I know it takes more proccessing power but I doubt large texture maps are the way of the future. It seems even in some current games, the ground is often very low quality (Check those quake wars screens in teh interview - I hope they don't represent this MegaTexture revolution). The amount of proccessing power and memory reuired to generate procedural maps of that kind of quality would be very small so you could increase the quality a lot and get really nice terrain.

Tomek


dude... all that you said is fine, but you have ignored the one main aspect: generating that procedural texture of 32000 * 32000 would require an insane amount of processing power. Just try that out in Maya/Max whatever you use and render it with all those cute little GI effects which by the way you have available in the Next-Gen games.
__________________
The things we own, end up owning us.
 
Old 05-17-2006, 08:30 AM   #13
CGTalk Moderation
Lord of the posts
CGTalk Forum Leader
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,066,481
Thread automatically closed

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.
__________________
CGTalk Policy/Legalities
Note that as CGTalk Members, you agree to the terms and conditions of using this website.
 
Thread Closed share thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.