WIP: Hi-poly Multiracial (Generic) Female - (Nudity)

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  07 July 2005
hi again AW, it's really nice to see you don't take critics and suggestions in the wrong way. I will post an image when I get home with comments and suggestions, but for a start you could carefully check the lips of the model, in the comparison pic the lower lip loos like it had some sort of indent/ concavity where it should be he other way around (rounded) Another suggestion is to give your model a shiny material instead of a flat one (a blinn or phong would do). This will help you identify the troubling spots better. And last but not least, get rid of Davinci's thing, you're modelling a female, that image can be great for modelling males but in reality there are several subtle (along with the obvius ) differences between the male and female body. Go to www.fineart.sk and get yourself some real references, they have lot's of med-to-hi res images for free, with plenty of body types to choose from. Anyway, your skills with the late part of the project seem really good but it will be a wasted effort if you don't pay enough attention to the modelling. Good luck mate

PS: I almost forgot, the ears need to be separated from the head, they look attached rigth now, they should flow out from the cheek and neck, with the back part getting away quite a lot from the head

PPS: I've run into an arguement with a co-worker, can you sort it by telling us if that is Natalie Portman on teh reference shot? thanks a lot
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Last edited by Feeank : 07 July 2005 at 07:35 PM.
 
  07 July 2005
It kinda looks like you modeled too strictly from the orhtagonal views, becuase it looks much more normal in the othro views than it does in perspective. It's one of those things that happens SOO many times in cg....somthing is technically 100% accurate, but it looks completely wrong. Just my thoughts. One specific thing which I think needs more work is the nose. it looks way to thin and boney. Good luck on the rest of it!
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  07 July 2005
Quote: but for a start you could carefully check the lips of the model, in the comparison pic the lower lip loos like it had some sort of indent/ concavity where it should be he other way around (rounded)
Yeah this is actually a displacement map problem. The concavity doesn't isn't there in the higher poly output.

Quote: Go to www.fineart.sk and get yourself some real references, they have lot's of med-to-hi res images for free, with plenty of body types to choose from.
Thanks for the link. These are great.

Quote: I almost forgot, the ears need to be separated from the head, they look attached rigth now, they should flow out from the cheek and neck
Hmmmm.. What do you mean? Any reference pics for this?

Thanks a bunch dude!
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  07 July 2005
Quote: It kinda looks like you modeled too strictly from the orhtagonal views, becuase it looks much more normal in the othro views than it does in perspective. It's one of those things that happens SOO many times in cg
Hmmm thats funny of you to say, because those 2 comparrison shots are actually from a camera. Oh well. But your totally right about modeling in orthognal views. ZBrush doesn't allow modeling while in perspective. Bleeeh, maybe the next version will.
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  07 July 2005
Originally Posted by AtmaWeapon:
Hmmmm.. What do you mean? Any reference pics for this?

Thanks a bunch dude!


Actually the one you're using is good enough, ears open wide to the front of the body so they pick soundwaves coming up primarily from that direction. This changes a bit from one person to another but not that much. Rigth now i can't see anything form the ear structure in the front view, but in the ref pic you can clearly see those elements in her ear.
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  07 July 2005
Post Small Changes

Quote: Actually the one you're using is good enough, ears open wide to the front of the body so they pick soundwaves coming up primarily from that direction. This changes a bit from one person to another but not that much. Rigth now i can't see anything form the ear structure in the front view, but in the ref pic you can clearly see those elements in her ear.
Awesome, thanks for the tip... you got a sharp eye. Thats two major issues you've helped me with. Yeah I guess I was trying to avoid monkey ears and got a little overboard.



Also, you can see the jaw line is changed in this picks. I aslo used those reference photos in that link to change a few minor things. But to tell you the truth. I didn't change that much at all. The changes were all really really minor. The major deviation from the reference pictures is that her neck is much skinnier, but I always though Uma Thermon's neck and body shape was very attractive. And she's diffinitely got a thinner neck.
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  07 July 2005
Hi. I'm busy sorting out my apartment and stuff so didn't manage to get back at you earlier. In fact I don't have too much time surfing around so here are a only few quick hints to get you started.

Look at the attached image. That's what I meant about the eyes. Usually there's about one eye's width between the eyes (and the head is about 5 eyes' width on the height of the eyes). It's not an absolute rule but a good guideline.

The eyes themself are defomed. The inner upper curve seems to have a dent. You may want to check out Linda Bergkvist's tutorial about Painting an eye.

The nasal bridge should look better if it doesn't become narrow and flat upwards. The nasal wings don't "flow/melt" right into the nasal bridge.

Also the shading seems to suggest 2 bulges on the cheeks which look wrong.

The upper part of the skull is bigger/ wider than the jaw. I know you are going to do hair but a rounder tip of the head should look more appealing.

Check out these anatomical guides too:
http://www.fineart.sk/show.php?w=39 (male head)
http://www.fineart.sk/show.php?w=71 (female head)

Study anatomy so you'd at least see if something feels wrong and what to check to fix it. Good luck.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg multiracialfacecrit.jpg (11.9 KB, 54 views)

Last edited by wanzai : 07 July 2005 at 03:32 PM.
 
  07 July 2005
Quote: Look at the attached image. That's what I meant about the eyes. Usually there's about one eye's width between the eyes (and the head is about 5 eyes' width on the height of the eyes). It's not an absolute rule but a good guideline.
Yeah I checked this out and did a bit of editing. I actually used this rule to make the low poly cage, but the lack of perspective distortion in ZBrush, kind of screws with this. I also reformed the nasal bridge, this was actually something that was bugging me a lot to.

Quote:
Also the shading seems to suggest 2 bulges on the cheeks which look wrong.

Your right about the cheeks. This wasn't there before, but its fixed now.

Quote:
Study anatomy so you'd at least see if something feels wrong and what to check to fix it. Good luck.
Ha, I've actually taken a figure drawing class at school... Sculpting in ortho is compeletely different than just drawing.
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  07 July 2005
i dont want to discourage you but you need to work on your anatomy, proportions, and topology. id suggest drawing alot from refrence. learn to start with form and then move into the details.

i hate to say this but id scrap this model and start over after ive learned proper anatomy/proportions. if you keep at it you will improve but make sure you look at your work with an indifferent eye and crit your own stuff. good luck in the future.

Last edited by JaMo : 07 July 2005 at 10:47 PM.
 
  08 August 2005
Red face Tweaked Geometry

Originally Posted by JaMo: i dont want to discourage you but you need to work on your anatomy, proportions, and topology. id suggest drawing alot from refrence. learn to start with form and then move into the details.

i hate to say this but id scrap this model and start over after ive learned proper anatomy/proportions. if you keep at it you will improve but make sure you look at your work with an indifferent eye and crit your own stuff. good luck in the future.


Thanks for the crit. Yeah I know my porprotions are bit messed up. I did kind of rushed job on the model and believe me, I've got plenty of stuff for porportions and figure drawing left over from my class. I guess its my fault for not using it. But why would I want to crit my own stuff? You guys do such a better job. Plus its really hard to do the correct porportions in ZBrush. The whole ortho thing really screws with you after a while. If you get a model to look right, it actually looks really F'ed up in ZBrush ortho view!

As for starting over, since ZBrush allows such easy tweaking of model, I probably won't do that. In any case, I tweaked the eyes a lot and edited the bone structure.

I think the jaw bone needs a little more work and perhaps the cheep bones? Perhaps make the nose thinner?

I also seem to have lost that childish and international look I was going for. She looks a lot more caucasian now. What do you guys think? Keep those crits coming!



PS does anyone know how to share maps in VRay? I keep getting these holes when I use distributed rendering.
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  08 August 2005
Originally Posted by AtmaWeapon: Hmmm thats funny of you to say, because those 2 comparrison shots are actually from a camera. Oh well. But your totally right about modeling in orthognal views. ZBrush doesn't allow modeling while in perspective. Bleeeh, maybe the next version will.


hmm, well I was wrong i guess...pie on my face lol. For some reason they looked like ortho views to me. And for some reason it looked a little better in those views than the ones from the different angles. I know I did a piece once that I used myself as reference and from the orthos everything looked correct and it looked like me, but once I looked at it in perspective, it looked nothing like me. argh. Regardless, keep chuggin' along!
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  08 August 2005
Post Minor Changes

Made some minor changes to the eye sockets and jaw.

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  08 August 2005
hi atma,

i've been watching your thread for a while. i've been trying to think of why she doesn't look quite right yet. generally i let people go on for a while because in general they get it, but i think i may see the source of your problem. it was pointed out that even though your orthographics match things still look wrong. that's true and it is a common problem. the reason is this: the beginner believes that because all reference shots come in front and side, and that there's front and side orthographic views, that that's all you need to match. it's not true, seductive, yes, but not true. you have to match references from every available angle. 3/4 views, top down, bottom up. obviously all these reference shots for a single indiviual are hard to come by, but there are rough constants of the human head that you can use to sub in when ref shots aren't available. and there's no getting around it, very rapidly after you rotoscope your available references, you're going to have to free model. that is where most of the resemblance to a real human actually happens, not in the rotoscope stage. grab the head and rotate it and tweek vertex by vertex until it looks credible from every angle (360x360x360). keep checking references of generic head anatomy as you go. it's grunt work but it makes a difference. some of the pro models actually try and replicate the camera attributes of the original photo and model that way. when it matches, they get a different photo and do the same. now you say you can't model in the perspective view in Zbrush, hmm, interesting. i would have thought you could, but i don't know anything about it. but can't you export the mesh out, model it and import it back in. anyway, i'm sorry to go on, but when i see someone with talent that may be working under the wrong assumptions i try to help. i'm no expert at this but principles of the method i have described appear universal.

for your model in particular you have problems in the cheek/eye/nose area which are classic from modeling in the perspective view. you need to concentrate on the depth and the forms there, define your cheekbones more and try and look around (mother/sister/girlfriend/stranger) and see how all those forms work together and flow around the skull. i can't give you any more advice than that just now. every angle is just as important as the orthographics.

good luck.
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  08 August 2005
Lightbulb Distributed Rendering and More Edits

Originally Posted by Cleveland: hi atma,

i've been watching your thread for a while. i've been trying to think of why she doesn't look quite right yet. generally i let people go on for a while because in general they get it, but i think i may see the source of your problem. it was pointed out that even though your orthographics match things still look wrong. that's true and it is a common problem. the reason is this: the beginner believes that because all reference shots come in front and side, and that there's front and side orthographic views, that that's all you need to match. it's not true, seductive, yes, but not true.

you have to match references from every available angle. 3/4 views, top down, bottom up. obviously all these reference shots for a single indiviual are hard to come by, but there are rough constants of the human head that you can use to sub in when ref shots aren't available. and there's no getting around it, very rapidly after you rotoscope your available references, you're going to have to free model. that is where most of the resemblance to a real human actually happens, not in the rotoscope stage. grab the head and rotate it and tweek vertex by vertex until it looks credible from every angle (360x360x360). keep checking references of generic head anatomy as you go. it's grunt work but it makes a difference. some of the pro models actually try and replicate the camera attributes of the original photo and model that way. when it matches, they get a different photo and do the same. now you say you can't model in the perspective view in Zbrush, hmm, interesting. i would have thought you could, but i don't know anything about it. but can't you export the mesh out, model it and import it back in. anyway, i'm sorry to go on, but when i see someone with talent that may be working under the wrong assumptions i try to help. i'm no expert at this but principles of the method i have described appear universal.

for your model in particular you have problems in the cheek/eye/nose area which are classic from modeling in the perspective view. you need to concentrate on the depth and the forms there, define your cheekbones more and try and look around (mother/sister/girlfriend/stranger) and see how all those forms work together and flow around the skull. i can't give you any more advice than that just now. every angle is just as important as the orthographics.

good luck.


Thank you so much for crits and interest. Its always good to know the community is watching. As for this one, I didn't use any references. This was actually my first attempt at modeling freehand. Guess that was a bit more difficult than I had imagined. Its funny that you mentioned to look at others around. Because when I started out (before all the edits) the model looked almost identical to my roommate. I guess I spent too much time with her.

Your right about orthographics. Its pretty nasty to get caught in it. As for ZBrush, yeah there is no perspective view during editing... you can get perspective, but you have to get out of editing mode. As for going back and forth, thats not really possible because ZBrush stores a subdivision history and going back and fourth would kind of ruin that.

Anyways. This weekend I've been playing around with distributed rendering and I finally got it to work. Look at the low render times! Since they were actually low enough, this allowed me to go back and forth from ZBrush to max making minor changes everytime. This is what I ended up with. She no longer looks like my roommate but I think I got the multinational look back. Thoughts?



PS... there's a slight problem on the side of the lip of this one, but that's been fixed.
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  08 August 2005
Angry My Computer Crashes!

Hmmm haven't had an update in awhile. Well, anyhoo I decided to start playing with hair again. The hair is terrible, due to the fact that my computer crashes when I render too many strands. Bleeeh. I tried increasing the strand thickness, but that just makes the hair look like plastic. Anyhoo wanted to throw this up there... the 3/4 view looks a bit weird. I can't really put my finger on it. Anyone? Also does anyone know of a good way to rig a face? I thought about using XForm mod. Morph, not really a fan of, because its a low poly cage. Also thought about using bones. Suggestions? Anyhoo here are the renders


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  08 August 2005
Thumbs up

looks good .. glad you decided ta start her back up


although her ear still bothers me .. maybe too thin for the length especially the bottom part.. well for me ..heh I most likely thinking about my families ears .. which we all have thick ear lobes.. everyone is different.. also I have no idea what it is called but if you add that little red skin attached to socket corner closer to the nose and rest on the eye it would help the realism for me. atm for me it looks like a mannequin with marble eyes no matter how good the texture. also the lips look too clean maybe painting small creases or doing them in zbrush ...but you might already have them and I can't see them on my moniter ^.^...

anyways she is lookin' good and I hope you do finish her even just for the hell of it good luck.
heh oh yea .. do those teeth, its just creepy with no teeth heh.

-Dark
 
  08 August 2005
I'm surprised sorta, that more people aren't talking about the neck, because I think it's impossibly thin right now. The muscles that hold your head up start at the back of your ears and her neck seems to be sort of under her skull like a flimsy little stem on a big sunflower. I understand wanting to have a slim neck a la Uma, but to be believable you must bulk that neck up - it's just not in the realm of reality at all to me at this point.

Great work taking people's suggestions and using them. I really respect someone who can take a well-meant critique w/out getting mad.
 
  08 August 2005
To follow up on the comment of modelling the shapes from photo references in multiple angles I would also recommend throwing strong lights on it from different angles to expose flaws. Its pretty effective, both in zbrush and in maya (which I use for rendering and lighting).

I saw this because sometimes a model looks like a fairly close match with one light setup but changing the lights completely changes the look. I like to do the light changes on an object as I am modeling because I don't trust what the viewport default lights show me.
 
  08 August 2005
This is coming along great. You know a lot of stuff that I don't. However, I can point out some flaws in the hope that you will correct them to make this look even better. Here's my list: the bottom eyelash outside half is pointing outward in an unnatural way, the parting in the center of the hair to too broad, the density of the hair at the sides of the head makes it look like she is balding, the back sides of the nostrils need to be pulled backward toward the face and the bridge of the nose is too narrow. The forehead looks like it juts out in the center in the face-on view. Maybe you should push it back a little. For more realism, add tear ducts, and some wrinkles on the face. Every face has wrinkles somewhere...

These are just areas that I think, if addressed, can bring your model to the next level of realism. You are doing GREAT. It may take a lot of work to do what I suggested. I'm sorry about that. I just want you to continue in this model to perfection. You're doing things that I can't wait to learn already. Keep going.
 
  08 August 2005
Post

Originally Posted by gardogg: the bottom eyelash outside half is pointing outward in an unnatural way, the parting in the center of the hair to too broad, the density of the hair at the sides of the head makes it look like she is balding, the back sides of the nostrils need to be pulled backward toward the face and the bridge of the nose is too narrow. The forehead looks like it juts out in the center in the face-on view. Maybe you should push it back a little. For more realism, add tear ducts, and some wrinkles on the face. Every face has wrinkles somewhere...


Could you be more specific about that eyebrow thing. Maybe attach a picture. I'm not quite sure what you were talking about.
Nose: Yup, this is something thats been bothering me for awhile too. I just fixed it
The Forehead: Yeah, this too is also something that is kind of strange. Like the armpit, due to the way the polygon topology is set up, it makes a point there. Anyhoo, I kind of fixed it manually though its still not perfect.
Tear ducks - I'll add those last.
Wrinkles as well as skin pores, they are there. But I will probably add more and increase the bump amount. They're really hard to see when its not super zoomed in.

Originally Posted by BMunchausen: I'm surprised sorta, that more people aren't talking about the neck, because I think it's impossibly thin right now. The muscles that hold your head up start at the back of your ears and her neck seems to be sort of under her skull like a flimsy little stem on a big sunflower. I understand wanting to have a slim neck a la Uma, but to be believable you must bulk that neck up - it's just not in the realm of reality at all to me at this point.


Neck = fixed. Yeah I was trying to go for the Uma Thermon look. Guess a bit a bit carried away

Originally Posted by Dark_sOLACE: although her ear still bothers me .. maybe too thin for the length especially the bottom part.. well for me ..heh I most likely thinking about my families ears .. which we all have thick ear lobes.. everyone is different.. also I have no idea what it is called but if you add that little red skin attached to socket corner closer to the nose and rest on the eye it would help the realism for me. atm for me it looks like a mannequin with marble eyes no matter how good the texture. also the lips look too clean maybe painting small creases or doing them in zbrush ...but you might already have them and I can't see them on my moniter ^.^...


Probably won't work on the ears as they seem a bit screwed up already. Zbrush doesn't do very well with thin geometry. DOH! Anyone want to offer advice? As for the tear ducks, they will be there later. The eyes also need a lot of work the texture is terrible right now. I think it looks like a mannequin because they are just soulessly looking straight ahead with no expression.

I will post a render as soon as I have time render one out... Been a bit too busy with my recently started bussiness. That and I'm starting graduate school in a week. YIKES! Of course on the plus side, my grad program give me a much better machine than my current one to use.


THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST AND SUPPORT GUYS!

PS. I've kind of run into a brick wall with cloth simulation. Man, is it slow!
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