WIP: Hi-poly Multiracial (Generic) Female - (Nudity)

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  07 July 2005
Wink WIP: Hi-poly Multiracial (Generic) Female - (Nudity)

Goal: Make a highly detailed multiracial female and use all tools possible to complicate my life... it is after all a learning experience.

Why is this complicated?
This project will probably get to a point and get stuck due to the fact that I won't have the computing power towards the end in order to finish. But I might as well get it started. The plan is make a fully rigged female model that will use SSS for the skin shader, displacement maps for geometry detail, cloth simulator for clothing and hair simulator for clothing. My machine is only a Athlon 1900+ with 512mb of RAM... so I think I probably won't be able to finish... at least until i get a new machine. Lets see how far I get. Wish me luck.

References: Since I want this to be a multi-racial person. I can't really use references. However, I will be looking at many photos of the many celebrities out there, especially the ones with stronger features. IE: Jessica Alba, Kiera Knightly, Zhang Yi Zi, Nicole Kidman, Penelope Cruz, etc.
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  07 July 2005
Good luck on this this one! It looks rather chalenging.
Get going! I will follow this for sure!
 
  07 July 2005
Post Geometry from 3d Studio to Max

The geometry started out as a low poly character modeled in 3d Studio Max some time ago. After fixing the topology of it and turning it into a ton of quads, I imported it into ZBrush to paint some detail on it.

I ended up using no references. But I suppose its based off of Jessica Alba more than anyone else. Although the more I look at it, the less it looks like it.

So I hit my first limit already. I can only use 5 subdivisions in ZBrush since I only have 512mb of RAM. I hope this will be enough detail. We can also forget about using Zbrush's projection master to paint some more detailed normal bump maps for pores and skin folds later.

Here's the geometry rendered in Zbrush...



Here's the head: Modeling in Zbrush can be hard sometime because its always in orthographic projection mode. Doh!


Torso: Didn't really want to make a belly button or nipples as that would complicate cloth simulation later on.


Hand: This was a pain in the butt! I had to stay in the topology of the so the finger nails would come out... so the pinky is slightly screwed up because the topology was kind of messed up.


And of course C&C's are welcomed as usual.
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  07 July 2005
Picking a renderer

So now the obvious challenge comes to getting the model into 3d Studio Max. Since max's memory management and adaptive mesh algorithms (or rather lack there of) is really crappy so it can't really handle the 500k poly models that ZBrush can handle in real time. So I did some testing. If you want, you can check out that thread right here:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=2494301

In any case, I used the low poly cage below and got some pretty good results with the VRay displacment mod.



The Winner: Vray
Two different types of displacements were used for testing and as you can see, they were all blazingly fast!

Subivision: This, in theory should give the most accurate shapes since this is what ZBrush outputs, unfortunately it leads to some artifacts of little bumps. Anyone know how to solve this?


2d (Landscape) This requires you to smooth out your mesh before you apply the displacement. This works just fine. But once again there are some different artificats. This time from the way the displacment map is set up itself since ZBrush outputs subdivision displacement maps.
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  07 July 2005
Lightbulb Let there be light

Decided to use HDRI for lighting as that seems to be the best way to get realstic effects quickly. Played around Vray materials for an hour or two to get the results below. As you can see, Vray renders SSS fairly quickly even with GI turned on. After gettinga fix on that, I decided to paint a diffuse texture. Next up, reflection and bump maps.

Problem: There seems to be a problem with some lighting. There is a major artifact in the ear area where it is just completely black. I have no idea what that is all about. However, as for the eye being black I know that's probably because I truned off refractive caustics in Vray to increase render times.

Does anyone know how fix the ear?





Once again, crits and comments are welcomed. Wow, not getting much activity on this thread....
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  07 July 2005
armpits should be improved, if you want to use cloth on them, rigth now they look really weird, as for the rest of the model there are some othe issues like the shape of the head and the shoulders (they look almost conical!) so I would try to fix that first before getting deeper into the rest of your project. Good luck
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  07 July 2005
Talking

Quote: armpits should be improved, if you want to use cloth on them, rigth now they look really weird, as for the rest of the model there are some othe issues like the shape of the head and the shoulders (they look almost conical!)

Whoa your diffinitely right about that! I didn't even notice. I guess I got a little lazy. Although I don't see what you mean by the armpits and cloth. Yeah, there's some weirdness (this is more to do with a topology issue.. ARRRG But what do you mean by the problem with a cloth. I don't see how that would affect it.

Also do you have any tips for me to do cloth? I've been reading some papers and learning about the caveats and such. I've decided to go for springy sleaveless top and longer pleated skirt.
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  07 July 2005
Thumbs up Shoulders - Better, Armpit - wtf!

So i tried fixing the shoulders a bit to make it more anatomically correct. It's better now. As for the armpit, I'm getting some major issues with the topology and Zbrush's smoothing tool not really cooperating. Oh well, it should be better once the arm actually bends down.

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  07 July 2005
Cool Reflection and Bump

Did some reflection and bump mapping to the face. Also added some frickles. I also turned on refractive caustics so we can see the eye texture... which diffinitely needs some work! But I'm pretty happy with the skin and fairly low render time of 10 minutes for a 760x760 frame.

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  07 July 2005
Originally Posted by AtmaWeapon: Whoa your diffinitely right about that! I didn't even notice. I guess I got a little lazy. .


Glad to help

Originally Posted by AtmaWeapon: Although I don't see what you mean by the armpits and cloth. Yeah, there's some weirdness (this is more to do with a topology issue.. ARRRG But what do you mean by the problem with a cloth. I don't see how that would affect it.

Also do you have any tips for me to do cloth? I've been reading some papers and learning about the caveats and such. I've decided to go for springy sleaveless top and longer pleated skirt.


Well, I only work with Maya cloth and have no idea about how 3ds apps for clothing behave (I tried once the famous plug-in which name now eludes me but found it unreliable and way too cumbersome, which is what most people whine about maya's cloth...go figure) But in your particular case you shouldn't have any problem come to think of it, a sleaveless top won't interact too much with the armpits and using a skirt is a warranty to avoid leg problems. Anyway, just make sure to constrain the top of the skirt to the body (that's what you do in maya) and make it before simulating the shirt, so they don't get in the way of each other.

If you want to check an example of my work with cloth check my first signature, hope you like it

PS: nice texturing, and the armpit & shoulder are definetly better now
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  07 July 2005
nice eyes

Great work, the texture on the face could be a bittle less dull. The lips are beautifull.
Maybe you dont get activity in this thread because your work is just great, so no crits
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  07 July 2005
Lovely textures. I would love to see more definition and detail around the eyes though...
 
  07 July 2005
Talking Poses

Alright! Finally some activity on this thread!
Quote: Lovely textures. I would love to see more definition and detail around the eyes though...
Thanks a lot. What do you mean more detail? Are you talking about the bump or map around the eyes or the eye texture themselves. Because the eye texture themselves diffinitely need a LOT of work!

Quote: Maybe you dont get activity in this thread because your work is just great, so no crits
Well then some comments would be nice too.

Quote: If you want to check an example of my work with cloth check my first signature, hope you like it
Thats some cool stuff man... I've played around with cloth before and I have to say, I wouldn't want to make a coat any time soon especialy with stuff underneath. Yikes! Good stuff!

And now... the poses. So I exported a Low-poly model from ZBrush and used Character studio to skin this chica! It works out pretty well except obviously some of the displacement doesn't quite look right at places. You'll see. Notice the arm pit and leg parts. Also the finger nails seem to have some issues. Anyways, ideas on how to fix this? Crits and comments?



I'm pretty happy with the render times too.
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  07 July 2005
Picking a hair renderer

Well... I decided to go with ornatrix for the hair. But the main problem seems to be that ornatrix does not support HDRI. I might have to do some faking with normal lights.
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  07 July 2005
Talking She's got hair!

Ok, after several hours of tweaking and such, I finally got a somewhat natural looking head of hair. And for future reference: EARS SUCK! Anyways, here's a two renders. Anyone want to help me pick a hair color? Dirty brown or black? Since she is multiracial, I'm leaning towards black... that and it looks a bit more natural.




Render times are starting to crawl up there! Yikes!
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  07 July 2005
i hope that doesnt sound too harsh but i dont understand why you are already dealing with hdri renderings, complex materials and hair, if there is quite much left to do about the anatomy of the model (head and body).. Maybe you should go back to modelling, use some references in the viewport and look for anatomic mistakes before going into finetuning materials and stuff?
 
  07 July 2005
Hi AtmaWeapon. I know it's hard but Powermaennchen is right. You gotta work on the anatomy, proportions, definitions first. Right now it doesn't even look like a zombie. For concrete critique (like draw-overs maybe), you might want to post orthogonals. For instance, the eyes are way to far apart and the nose is too low. The chin seems to be very tiny, though this could be the perspective. Btw, portrait shots work better in tele, try 135mm or even more, while pulling back your camera of course.

I don't think it's appropriate for you to worry about those high-end technical stuff when your subject is not ready yet.

I know it's not nice of me to say this, but praises won't get you any further.
 
  07 July 2005
Porportions Check

Hey guys, thanks for the crits! Thats what this forum is for. Could you guys be a little more specific about whats wrong? I did some checks with reference images and I really can't find that much wrong with my porportions.

Quote: Maybe you should go back to modelling, use some references in the viewport and look for anatomic mistakes before going into finetuning materials and stuff?

So the original low poly cage was modeled with that divinci thing and then later I made some changes to it. I know the arm is a little short, but I did make a conceous effor to make them a bit shorter than they are suppose to be since I found that when I did make them the right size, they always seemed too langky when I lowered the shoulders in my previous character models.

Quote: For instance, the eyes are way to far apart and the nose is too low

I can kind of see what you mean by the eyes. Being a bit wide, I will probably make some changes later. I don't really know what you mean by the nose though. Do you mean the shape? Its kind of a button nose I know. Would you suggest something else?



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  07 July 2005
something i notice in the side view is the jaw line. It goes up to the ear, not past it.

Like so: (see the red)


After you make that adjustment, maybe move the ear, and jawline next to the ear, back a little.
 
  07 July 2005
Quote: It goes up to the ear, not past it.
Cool, thanks. I pushed the jaw line foward a bit.
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  07 July 2005
hi again AW, it's really nice to see you don't take critics and suggestions in the wrong way. I will post an image when I get home with comments and suggestions, but for a start you could carefully check the lips of the model, in the comparison pic the lower lip loos like it had some sort of indent/ concavity where it should be he other way around (rounded) Another suggestion is to give your model a shiny material instead of a flat one (a blinn or phong would do). This will help you identify the troubling spots better. And last but not least, get rid of Davinci's thing, you're modelling a female, that image can be great for modelling males but in reality there are several subtle (along with the obvius ) differences between the male and female body. Go to www.fineart.sk and get yourself some real references, they have lot's of med-to-hi res images for free, with plenty of body types to choose from. Anyway, your skills with the late part of the project seem really good but it will be a wasted effort if you don't pay enough attention to the modelling. Good luck mate

PS: I almost forgot, the ears need to be separated from the head, they look attached rigth now, they should flow out from the cheek and neck, with the back part getting away quite a lot from the head

PPS: I've run into an arguement with a co-worker, can you sort it by telling us if that is Natalie Portman on teh reference shot? thanks a lot
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Last edited by Feeank : 07 July 2005 at 07:35 PM.
 
  07 July 2005
It kinda looks like you modeled too strictly from the orhtagonal views, becuase it looks much more normal in the othro views than it does in perspective. It's one of those things that happens SOO many times in cg....somthing is technically 100% accurate, but it looks completely wrong. Just my thoughts. One specific thing which I think needs more work is the nose. it looks way to thin and boney. Good luck on the rest of it!
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  07 July 2005
Quote: but for a start you could carefully check the lips of the model, in the comparison pic the lower lip loos like it had some sort of indent/ concavity where it should be he other way around (rounded)
Yeah this is actually a displacement map problem. The concavity doesn't isn't there in the higher poly output.

Quote: Go to www.fineart.sk and get yourself some real references, they have lot's of med-to-hi res images for free, with plenty of body types to choose from.
Thanks for the link. These are great.

Quote: I almost forgot, the ears need to be separated from the head, they look attached rigth now, they should flow out from the cheek and neck
Hmmmm.. What do you mean? Any reference pics for this?

Thanks a bunch dude!
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  07 July 2005
Quote: It kinda looks like you modeled too strictly from the orhtagonal views, becuase it looks much more normal in the othro views than it does in perspective. It's one of those things that happens SOO many times in cg
Hmmm thats funny of you to say, because those 2 comparrison shots are actually from a camera. Oh well. But your totally right about modeling in orthognal views. ZBrush doesn't allow modeling while in perspective. Bleeeh, maybe the next version will.
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  07 July 2005
Originally Posted by AtmaWeapon:
Hmmmm.. What do you mean? Any reference pics for this?

Thanks a bunch dude!


Actually the one you're using is good enough, ears open wide to the front of the body so they pick soundwaves coming up primarily from that direction. This changes a bit from one person to another but not that much. Rigth now i can't see anything form the ear structure in the front view, but in the ref pic you can clearly see those elements in her ear.
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  07 July 2005
Post Small Changes

Quote: Actually the one you're using is good enough, ears open wide to the front of the body so they pick soundwaves coming up primarily from that direction. This changes a bit from one person to another but not that much. Rigth now i can't see anything form the ear structure in the front view, but in the ref pic you can clearly see those elements in her ear.
Awesome, thanks for the tip... you got a sharp eye. Thats two major issues you've helped me with. Yeah I guess I was trying to avoid monkey ears and got a little overboard.



Also, you can see the jaw line is changed in this picks. I aslo used those reference photos in that link to change a few minor things. But to tell you the truth. I didn't change that much at all. The changes were all really really minor. The major deviation from the reference pictures is that her neck is much skinnier, but I always though Uma Thermon's neck and body shape was very attractive. And she's diffinitely got a thinner neck.
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  07 July 2005
Hi. I'm busy sorting out my apartment and stuff so didn't manage to get back at you earlier. In fact I don't have too much time surfing around so here are a only few quick hints to get you started.

Look at the attached image. That's what I meant about the eyes. Usually there's about one eye's width between the eyes (and the head is about 5 eyes' width on the height of the eyes). It's not an absolute rule but a good guideline.

The eyes themself are defomed. The inner upper curve seems to have a dent. You may want to check out Linda Bergkvist's tutorial about Painting an eye.

The nasal bridge should look better if it doesn't become narrow and flat upwards. The nasal wings don't "flow/melt" right into the nasal bridge.

Also the shading seems to suggest 2 bulges on the cheeks which look wrong.

The upper part of the skull is bigger/ wider than the jaw. I know you are going to do hair but a rounder tip of the head should look more appealing.

Check out these anatomical guides too:
http://www.fineart.sk/show.php?w=39 (male head)
http://www.fineart.sk/show.php?w=71 (female head)

Study anatomy so you'd at least see if something feels wrong and what to check to fix it. Good luck.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg multiracialfacecrit.jpg (11.9 KB, 54 views)

Last edited by wanzai : 07 July 2005 at 03:32 PM.
 
  07 July 2005
Quote: Look at the attached image. That's what I meant about the eyes. Usually there's about one eye's width between the eyes (and the head is about 5 eyes' width on the height of the eyes). It's not an absolute rule but a good guideline.
Yeah I checked this out and did a bit of editing. I actually used this rule to make the low poly cage, but the lack of perspective distortion in ZBrush, kind of screws with this. I also reformed the nasal bridge, this was actually something that was bugging me a lot to.

Quote:
Also the shading seems to suggest 2 bulges on the cheeks which look wrong.

Your right about the cheeks. This wasn't there before, but its fixed now.

Quote:
Study anatomy so you'd at least see if something feels wrong and what to check to fix it. Good luck.
Ha, I've actually taken a figure drawing class at school... Sculpting in ortho is compeletely different than just drawing.
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  07 July 2005
i dont want to discourage you but you need to work on your anatomy, proportions, and topology. id suggest drawing alot from refrence. learn to start with form and then move into the details.

i hate to say this but id scrap this model and start over after ive learned proper anatomy/proportions. if you keep at it you will improve but make sure you look at your work with an indifferent eye and crit your own stuff. good luck in the future.

Last edited by JaMo : 07 July 2005 at 10:47 PM.
 
  08 August 2005
Red face Tweaked Geometry

Originally Posted by JaMo: i dont want to discourage you but you need to work on your anatomy, proportions, and topology. id suggest drawing alot from refrence. learn to start with form and then move into the details.

i hate to say this but id scrap this model and start over after ive learned proper anatomy/proportions. if you keep at it you will improve but make sure you look at your work with an indifferent eye and crit your own stuff. good luck in the future.


Thanks for the crit. Yeah I know my porprotions are bit messed up. I did kind of rushed job on the model and believe me, I've got plenty of stuff for porportions and figure drawing left over from my class. I guess its my fault for not using it. But why would I want to crit my own stuff? You guys do such a better job. Plus its really hard to do the correct porportions in ZBrush. The whole ortho thing really screws with you after a while. If you get a model to look right, it actually looks really F'ed up in ZBrush ortho view!

As for starting over, since ZBrush allows such easy tweaking of model, I probably won't do that. In any case, I tweaked the eyes a lot and edited the bone structure.

I think the jaw bone needs a little more work and perhaps the cheep bones? Perhaps make the nose thinner?

I also seem to have lost that childish and international look I was going for. She looks a lot more caucasian now. What do you guys think? Keep those crits coming!



PS does anyone know how to share maps in VRay? I keep getting these holes when I use distributed rendering.
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