CGTalk > Software > Lightwave 3D
Login register
Thread Closed share thread « Previous Thread | Next Thread »
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-24-2005, 08:42 PM   #1
INFINITE
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Question Is Lightwave the worst rigging software out there?

I have spent years and years pulling my hair out when using lightwaves bones and weightsmaps to try and deform realistic looking models!! anyone else out there agree? let alone setting it up for IK/FK etc
 
Old 03-24-2005, 09:01 PM   #2
leigh
blahblah
 
leigh's Avatar
CGSociety Staff
portfolio
Leigh van der Byl
A cog in the wheel
Hertfordshire, United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 29,793
Oh boy this thread is going to go downhill fast...
__________________
leighvanderbyl.com
 
Old 03-24-2005, 09:05 PM   #3
Shade01
Extreme Pontificator
 
Shade01's Avatar
CGSociety Member
portfolio
Rashad Redic
Senior Developer
Improbable
United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,082
Quote:
Originally Posted by I N F I N I T E
I have spent years and years pulling my hair out when using lightwaves bones and weightsmaps to try and deform realistic looking models!! anyone else out there agree? let alone setting it up for IK/FK etc


If this is the stage you are having problems at, then you will have problems in other packages too. Creating bones and weightmaps isn't that different from package to package. Some packages do a few things or have a few tools that make certain steps easier, but it sounds like you are running into trouble before you get that far.
 
Old 03-24-2005, 09:15 PM   #4
INFINITE
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Talking

Ok, dont wanna start off a huge debate or arguement . . . plz I would love to know of any great examples where Lightwave has been used to pull off very realistic Human character deformations. I understand all the basic's of Lightwaves setups etc but I never seem to get great results that is what I am saying, just asking for abit of advice really. Low poly setups for game characters I have found easy but highpoly and realistic control is hard, I find anyway. . weight maps aarrgghh !!

Point me in the right direction and I will be quiet!
 
Old 03-24-2005, 09:30 PM   #5
Kid-Mesh
Vertice Wrangler
 
Kid-Mesh's Avatar
portfolio
Anthony Hollis
Shelby Township, USA
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,014
Send a message via AIM to Kid-Mesh
Red face

Im going to have to agree with Shade01 on this one, honestly perception is reality and the preception that rigging and animating in Lightwave is either hard or non intuitive or insert x issue is just B.S., there is a learning curve in all applications.

True enough, there maybe some downfalls or wanted features that you might see in other applications. And there is always going to be the grass is greener on the other side deal. But at the stage you having issues at which is "basic level" doesnt really have too much to do with Lightwave...it's just you until you getter familar and better with it in time.

Actually think about what your saying here, how hard is it to actually create skelegons in modeler? Or how hard is it to actually create bones directly in Layout? Have you even tried IKBoost?...

Ok how about this, how hard is it to open up property panels and setup IK if you know what your doing? seems like point and click to me, if you know what your doing? Where most people have issues usually seems to be with weightmapping and actually using their "IK" setups when their done. It's just a matter of understanding the subject, nothing a little light reading and experimentation couldnt and wont cure.

Trust me on this, if you cant rig in Lightwave, set up weightmaps and build IK chains which for the most part are your beginning foundations to it all, then dont go wasting your money on something else because your still going to have problems without that knowledge. I just cant see how Lightwave makes that difficult

Between Jonny & Timothy who are the authors of some pretty good darn books on the subject, have actually laid to rest afaik that Rigging and Animating in Lightwave is a pain or the worst. They have actuall proven that to me at least that doing it in Lightwave is actually a kick a$$ process and fun at that.

I have Messiah Animate 5 and have used Motion Builder, I have also rigged in 3DSMAX 5 and Maya 5. Out of all of those Lightwave is a sight for sore eyes imho. It's the least technical of them all. Max was the worst (didnt use C.S. with it). Messiah Animate was ok but it was a little heavy on the technical side too. If I had the chance to do it over again based on what I know now about Lightwaves animation tools I would have spent my money that I used for Messiah on FPRIME
__________________

"I see my path, but I don't know where it leads. Not knowing where I'm going is what inspires me to travel it."
 
Old 03-24-2005, 09:34 PM   #6
Kid-Mesh
Vertice Wrangler
 
Kid-Mesh's Avatar
portfolio
Anthony Hollis
Shelby Township, USA
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,014
Send a message via AIM to Kid-Mesh
Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by I N F I N I T E
... I understand all the basic's of Lightwaves setups etc but I never seem to get great results that is what I am saying, just asking for abit of advice really. Low poly setups for game characters I have found easy but highpoly and realistic control is hard.....


Just spend more time with the application, Just look at Newteks site or Spinquad. There is always some good animation located their using HighPoly stuff. Either your new to Lightwave and the community or the internet. Most of the animations I have see with Lightwave have been high poly....just keep practicing.
__________________

"I see my path, but I don't know where it leads. Not knowing where I'm going is what inspires me to travel it."
 
Old 03-24-2005, 09:39 PM   #7
NeptuneImaging
Polygonal Assassin
 
NeptuneImaging's Avatar
portfolio
Kashif Riley
Generalist
KRGraphics
Boston, USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,101
Yup...practice will help you a long way... Rigging in Lightwave is a snap now after playing with it...
 
Old 03-24-2005, 10:07 PM   #8
yog
Vertex basher
 
yog's Avatar
Mark CMark
United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,428
For a single character I would have to say that LW is a major pain in the butt, and a lot more convoluted that most other apps out there. Two examples, weighting and joint morphs, both done in a completely different application to the rest of the rigging and test animation. Then you have the optional extras like springy bones and latices for controlling skin sliding, possible in LW, but you'll lose a lot of hair getting it set up. Then there is saving out custom built rigs, LW has it's new Rig format, but it doesn't let you save out controllers and expressions like most other apps do.

However, LW does score highly when it comes to rigging a lot of similar characters. The ability to cut body parts from one character and merge them onto another character, keeping weighting and endomorphs in tact is a stroke of genius.
__________________
Kernow bys vykken!!!
 
Old 03-24-2005, 10:18 PM   #9
adrencg
Lord of the posts
 
adrencg's Avatar
portfolio
Graphics
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 890
Easy to rig

ig
Quote:
Originally Posted by I N F I N I T E
I have spent years and years pulling my hair out when using lightwaves bones and weightsmaps to try and deform realistic looking models!! anyone else out there agree? let alone setting it up for IK/FK etc


I find it easy to rig....my problem is with the IK solving itself. I'm not sure about other software(maybe some of you can clarify this), but LW's IK is twitchy. Sometimes foot jiggle is at an almost unusable level. Does Maya, C4D or XSI have IK that is a pain to get "wobble-free"?

Mike
 
Old 03-24-2005, 10:24 PM   #10
INFINITE
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Talking

WOw! some good replies there guys, cheers for the info, maybe you guys are right. Abit more time and a few more 'years' practice I might get there. I have always hated rigging and animating to be honest. I have always seen it as Artist - Animater - Coder from a gam dev perspective anyway. You either have it or you dont. Rigging and animating has never interested me. Modelling - texturing - lighting has and always will do. . .


But I will defo go and buy Tim Albee's book ( and what ever else I can find ) because there seems to be evidence that LW aint so bad after all

would still like to seem some examples of realistic humans that use bones and weight maps etc. never have done. . . . .
 
Old 03-24-2005, 10:50 PM   #11
richcz3
esc is key
 
richcz3's Avatar
portfolio
Richard Cabrera
Media Developer
Digital Works
Los Angeles, USA
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,261
Send a message via Yahoo to richcz3
Hey I am far from being a character animator but I can write that if you haven't heard of the Maestro plugin, you should. Its quite flexible and comes with biped, quadraped, and even wing rigs that can be modified to suit your characters. The control scheme also allows you to control morphs from one panel.
Do a search in this forum and you'll get a real good read on what it can do.
__________________
Richard Cabrera
Twitter - Flickr
 
Old 03-24-2005, 10:55 PM   #12
SplineGod
Have LW, will travel.....
 
SplineGod's Avatar
3D Modeler/Animator
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,890
Send a message via ICQ to SplineGod Send a message via AIM to SplineGod
I find rigging in LW to be pretty straightforward and fairly quick to do.
I would have to say that if you go about rigging in the wrong way (usually meaning workflow) its going to be tough. It also depends on how well you understand animation in general and what a good rig should be able to do as well as which tools in LW will help you to create that rig. How you need to animate and what the character needs to be able to do will drive how you rig. If you dont know animation very well then its better to work with an experienced animator who can give you feedback on your rig.

Rigging in LW is a bit different in some aspects. In LW bones are deformers so when you rest/activate them they work immediatly. This being the case its generally better to test deformations before determining what to do to improve the deformations such as adding additional hold bones, using weight maps, endomorphs etc. Because the bones are deformers I find that I generally dont need weight maps or only need very simple ones. Waiting until after adding and activating bones to add weight maps will save you a great deal of headache instead of trying to deal with bones and weight maps up front at the same time.

You also need to separate rigging into two separate aspects:
1. Animation
2. Deformation

The animation aspec has to do with a rig that is poseable, stable and stable between poses.
Deformations has to do with joints keeping their volume, muscle flexing, skin, fat etc.

The two arent really related. In many studios someone does the character animation and others do the technical animating which involves making sure that the deformations work with the motions applied by the character animator. This rig can be push onto other technical animators for other types of dynamics such as cloth. Rarely does one person do all that himself. In smaller studios you may have to wear multiple hats. Ive done all of these things in LW and as I said its generally easy to do if approached properly.

Rigging in any app generally isnt easy. Rigging is anything you do to make something animateable and that can be almost anything.

Anything you can do to keep things as simple as possible will help.
 
Old 03-25-2005, 05:55 AM   #13
Chaz
Cocktail me!
Chaz
VFX Student
Bay Area, USA
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 235
Send a message via ICQ to Chaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrencg
I find it easy to rig....my problem is with the IK solving itself. I'm not sure about other software(maybe some of you can clarify this), but LW's IK is twitchy. Sometimes foot jiggle is at an almost unusable level. Does Maya, C4D or XSI have IK that is a pain to get "wobble-free"?

Totally agree.

Maya and XSI's bones are most definitely "wobble-free." I really hope a forthcoming version of Lightwave adds IK handles. I like a lot of things about animation in Lightwave, but IK is something I'd rather do in Maya any day of the week. Rigging isn't necessarily easier, but it's a simple thing to get subtle, secondary motions with Maya and XSI.

Having said that, if you can't do a good rig in Lightwave, you won't be able to in any other app either.
 
Old 03-25-2005, 06:02 AM   #14
SplineGod
Have LW, will travel.....
 
SplineGod's Avatar
3D Modeler/Animator
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,890
Send a message via ICQ to SplineGod Send a message via AIM to SplineGod
Its strange but I never get any strange twitching or wobbling in LW and as hard as I try I cant remember the last time I did.
 
Old 03-25-2005, 11:21 AM   #15
toonafish
Forgot-it-all
 
toonafish's Avatar
portfolio
Fishy dude
freelance CG artist
owner Toonafish
Netherlands
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by SplineGod
Its strange but I never get any strange twitching or wobbling in LW and as hard as I try I cant remember the last time I did.


c'm on Larry...check out your own FireLizard rig on the free samples page....to be honest it's a terrible rig, the head shakes when you move the front foot because you didn't end the IK chain and if you do, the neck starts twitching. The right leg is all screwed up just as the feet.
__________________
Fish

www.toonafish.nl
Buy stock objects

 
Thread Closed share thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright 2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.