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Old 08-20-2013, 05:34 PM   #16
Horganovski
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Brian Horgan
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Heh, I feel we are arguing over semantics at this stage. Yes of course you don't animate every frame all the time. But a decent animator does make very conscious decisions over where to control the interpolation and where they can leave it to the computer. I'm sure we both agree on that, I'm just trying to clarify my point.

To me when I have an IK hand in world space and I blend to the arm being FK it almost never looks right so I really prefer to snap poses rather than blend. If blending works for you then great, but it's something I prefer to avoid. Of course doing the snapping right on the point of contact (in the case of FK to IK) can help too as then you have less spacing issues to worry about.

I repeat though - the original question I answered was about blending one entire motion between two different animations, and I believe that unless you get very lucky the transition poses are generally going to look like garbage when you do that. I would always bake something like that down to keys and fix the in-betweens in the graph editor to make them look more natural.

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Old 08-20-2013, 05:56 PM   #17
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You have to blend no matter what it can't simply be a snap as even a snap needs to at least blend in the subframes. Otherwise motion blur is broken. Typically a two frame blend will blur better than a single. Longer than that and I'd agree your giving a lot of chance to the computer, but at the same time all interpolation has the same risk. Switches or poorly animated snaps are the name of lighters who have to send back animations multiple times because an animator simply doesn't get the problem.

As for when can full body blends look good, I'd point out we'll animated games getting there, the challenge for them is they have to sacrifice the quality to maintain the interactive mess
For the player. You watch a game animators reel of animations and transitions and they can look absolutely amazing. In game they rarely look as good because if a player wants to change from run to jump to swing the game needs to make sure those actions happen like the player requested regardless of blending too soon or too fast or worst of all simply cutting off an animation.
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:30 PM   #18
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The motionblur question is one I've often wondered about. I remember a topic recently where people were discussing ways around the lack of a Euler Filter command in Cinema and to get around gimbal issues one method discussed was to simply copy the flipped frame to the frame after the good one and then work on from there, trying to fix the interpolation by eye as the poses transition.
My first thought reading that was that wouldn't that cause a motion blur pop since you are effectively having a 360 rotation over one frame, but - my 2nd thought was can you then get around issues like that (and sub frame issues with IK/FK snapping etc) by baking the geometry down to a cache and simply deleting the rig altogether once the animation is finalized? Does that then fix the MB issues ?

Regarding animation blending in games, I guess it's getting better for sure, but yeah, I listened to a podcast fairly recently where some game animators were bemoaning the fact that what they animate rarely gets into the game 100%, by the time you factor in blending and animation compression a lot of the animation gets softened and they said that often they will have to rework an action multiple times going back and forth between the animation app and the game engine before they actually get close to what they were originally intending.

Cheers,
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horganovski
Heh, I feel we are arguing over semantics at this stage. Yes of course you don't animate every frame all the time. But a decent animator does make very conscious decisions over where to control the interpolation and where they can leave it to the computer. I'm sure we both agree on that, I'm just trying to clarify my point.


Semantics or not, if you are going to try to teach people about animation, I think you need to think about what you're telling them. Your statement basically was that the computer kills the life of animation, don't ever let it interpolate(blending IK/FK or not). It doesn't kill animation, the decisions an animator makes are what kills it. You can make a very convincing animation with very few keyframes and breakdowns and a lot of computer interpolation, but if your keyframes are weak and your breakdowns poor, then so will your interpolations. That's the animator's fault, not the computer.
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horganovski
The motionblur question is one I've often wondered about. I remember a topic recently where people were discussing ways around the lack of a Euler Filter command in Cinema and to get around gimbal issues one method discussed was to simply copy the flipped frame to the frame after the good one and then work on from there, trying to fix the interpolation by eye as the poses transition.
My first thought reading that was that wouldn't that cause a motion blur pop since you are effectively having a 360 rotation over one frame, but - my 2nd thought was can you then get around issues like that (and sub frame issues with IK/FK snapping etc) by baking the geometry down to a cache and simply deleting the rig altogether once the animation is finalized? Does that then fix the MB issues ?


Hmm, good questions. I don't render much, so I don't have definite answers. I believe, yes it could have an issue when fixing the gimbal lock(that depends on what ranges you had and were working with before I think how bad it would be).

As far as baking it down, it SHOULD fix it I believe, but there could be some sort of vertex velocities stored in a cache format(talking a bit out of my ass here), and if they were stored then I think it would have MB problems. Otherwise, it could be alright.
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:40 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xfon5168
Semantics or not, if you are going to try to teach people about animation, I think you need to think about what you're telling them. Your statement basically was that the computer kills the life of animation, don't ever let it interpolate(blending IK/FK or not). It doesn't kill animation, the decisions an animator makes are what kills it.


LOL, that was exactly the point I made in my long post on the previous page. I just said there that I don't want to teach technical parts of animation! I'm much more interested in the art side, like the classic principles, but clearly (!) people here are much more interested in the technical side. Fine, but I'm not that guy. I already told Maxon earlier today that I won't be doing the lecture this year, so case closed, really.

I don't get why you are picking on this one point now. We are both basically saying the same thing really, that a good animator decides when to control the animation, and when to let the computer handle it. My original point was that just putting two different animations together on the timeline, or in motionclips whatever, and letting the computer interpolate rarely gives decent results IMO, Kai said pretty much the same thing too with his comment about blending in games too. You picked up on the IK/FK thing and made a much bigger point out of than I intended.


Cheers,
Brian
 
Old 08-20-2013, 08:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horganovski
I don't get why you are picking on this one point now. We are both basically saying the same thing really, that a good animator decides when to control the animation, and when to let the computer handle it. My original point was that just putting two different animations together on the timeline, or in motionclips whatever, and letting the computer interpolate rarely gives decent results IMO, Kai said pretty much the same thing too with his comment about blending in games too. You picked up on the IK/FK thing and made a much bigger point out of than I intended.


I caught on to the IK/FK blending because you specifically mentioned it, yes in the same breath as motion clips, but you separated it out. And as someone who knows rigging and studied animation for 18 months with professional animators as well, I think that's a bad thing to teach people, so I called it out. I see professional animators everyday doing just that and it looks fine.

That's all I'm saying, is that I think that was a bad thing to go about telling people that, because what makes it look fake isn't the blending itself, it's the animation. That there is nothing wrong with letting the computer interpolate for you. I think people shouldn't be teaching others that is all.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:56 AM   #23
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Well I did preface that whole statement with 'IMO', which it remains, my opinion. I never said it was some kind of widely held 'fact'. I did notice at iAnimate that many animators there held sharply differing (and strongly held) opinions on technical issues. One teacher swore by spline-blocking which he termed 'splocking', while another spoke with derision on that workflow, referring to it as 'slopping'. Both of them were great animators so who is to say who is 'correct'.

But fine, you win the internet today if you like , I'm still not going to start blending my IK/FK though, snapping gives me exactly the poses I want, on the frames I want them

Still curious about the motionblur issue and whether it's solvable by caching the geo or not though...

Cheers,
Brian

Last edited by Horganovski : 08-21-2013 at 02:00 AM.
 
Old 08-21-2013, 04:33 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horganovski
Still curious about the motionblur issue and whether it's solvable by caching the geo or not though...


Im not sure. Maybe when I'm off Overtime I will be able to play with it.

My initial hunch is that PLA would be fine, but I somehow feel like Alembic would have problems. But I don't render, so what do I know
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:33 PM   #25
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