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Old 02-12-2013, 02:27 PM   #106
nudelsalat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DataDay
Fact: Over 75% of the losses a publisher faces are due to second hand game sales.

Sounds like a naive fallacy to me. I hardly ever buy games that cost more than 30€. If it costs more and I can't get it second hand, I won't buy it at all. No loss to the industry in that case because I would not have bought it without second hand either.
 
Old 02-12-2013, 02:36 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nudelsalat
Sounds like a naive fallacy to me. I hardly ever buy games that cost more than 30€. If it costs more and I can't get it second hand, I won't buy it at all. No loss to the industry in that case because I would not have bought it without second hand either.


It's not. See you even admit to being willing to give 30€ for a product, but instead of that being given to those who develop, publish and distribute, it goes to some retailer instead. The other point is that you put more emphasis on getting the game at the price you feel entitled to as opposed to purchasing a legitimate license to run the software.

Assuming you speak of second hand sales:
The fact you are willing to give X amount of Euros for software but dont give it to the said publisher/developer is in fact causing a loss.

If the publisher or developer is selling the product at a discount then its fine.
 
Old 02-12-2013, 04:04 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DataDay
Fact: Over 75% of the losses a publisher faces are due to second hand game sales.


Not earning hypothetical money is not a 'loss'.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:06 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DataDay
At what point in history? I think what you are referring to is the point at which publishers funded projects, which continues to this very day.

Let me explain to you how this works... a developer gets paid for a project no matter what, yes, but if the game is a success they rarely see any royalties. All the profit goes into the publisher. So when a publisher funds the development of a project, and the game doesnt make enough profit to be profitable, who pays for it? The developer or the publisher? Even if the developer gets his salary, it doesnt stop the studio or publisher from letting that developer go.

So when I see people say "hey they still get paid", I want to slap them in the face...figuratively speaking of course. There are consequences for a game not doing as well as it should and it either results in the developer losing their job, the studio getting shut down or worse loss of projects and outsourcing.

Fact: Over 75% of the losses a publisher faces are due to second hand game sales.

When someone sells a game second hand, the publisher nor the developer see's any profit. It doesnt go back into the fund that keeps the development going, nor keeps the developers in business. When retailers sell second hand, they are low balling the publishing companies they rely upon, doing far more damage than good.

People like the OP forget, or maybe just refuse to accept, that games are SOFTWARE. You do not OWN software, but you can purchase the license to use it.

There is NO logical or rational excuse for whining about a game's EULA when you have the choice to purchase the license or not. Every consumer has the choice to accept the EULA or move on. The problem here is then childish level entitlement. They feel they "deserve" the game, that the work of an entire development studio is something they have a right to, that they deserve it. If someone said they are entitled to my artwork and design, I would want to punch them in the face, because its insulting and out right pathetic.

People like the OP are doing more damage than good. They might generate some sympathy if the localization process keeps their cost ridiculously high, but there is no excuse for ignoring the license agreement of software some kid feels entitled to, which ultimately hurts the developers.

Second hand sales have done far more damage to the industry than piracy, in fact its on the same level of piracy if not worse. It's saying that you are willing to run software regardless of having a license for it and make it worse by giving money to someone other than the developer/publisher.

I wish people would grow up and stop hurting the development within the industry they claim to love.


do you have any sources for all the "facts" you threw in there?
sorry, but claiming second hand sales are "the devil" of the industrie sounds (white fluffy gloves on) a bit far fetched...

so what about used cars? well i'm pretty sure, used cars hurts the car industry.. oh my god, there are used houses, too?? what about all those contractors, architects, and especially those poor 3d-vis artists who will now probably starve to death? don't you love housing? what about audio cds? they won't loose any quality when sold, so are you want licensing for physical cds aswell?

i admit with "digital-only" content this issue gets more complicated, but when someone buys a product, he is entitled to sell it, like everything else he bought.

for example when i buy softimage for 3-4K, and therefor get the right to use it without any time limitation, still i'm not owning it, because the 40pages eula states that somewhere? (i didn't lease it, or rent it.... i bought it.) you find this business practice ok? its like swindeling an old lady into something and then tell her, its her fault not to read 40pages of BS (after(!) she bought it, in autodesks case)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DataDay
I want to slap them in the face...figuratively speaking of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DataDay
If someone said they are entitled to my artwork and design, I would want to punch them in the face, because its insulting and out right pathetic.


well besides you obviously have an angermanagment problem to work on, one last thing:

someone who bought one of your paintings, and makes the mistake of his life and resells it (this cheapskate), , he gets IT right in his face? right? you know how the art market works, don't you? without reselling, art wouldnt be worth much.

and yes if someone buys a painting, he is entitled to do with it what he wants (from burning to reselling) in my opinion (excluding insurance fraud burns and such things of course well he can still burn it, but not claim it )
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:11 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DataDay
People like the OP forget, or maybe just refuse to accept, that games are SOFTWARE. You do not OWN software, but you can purchase the license to use it.


I'm sorry, but that is completely unacceptable from a basic consumer-rights standpoint.

If I BUY something with HARD CASH, then it is only natural that I ACTUALLY OWN IT.

It doesn't matter what you put in the EULA. I OWN that copy of a software or a game.

Anything less than full, legal ownership of what I BUY is unacceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DataDay
The problem here is then childish level entitlement. They feel they "deserve" the game, that the work of an entire development studio is something they have a right to, that they deserve it. If someone said they are entitled to my artwork and design, I would want to punch them in the face, because its insulting and out right pathetic.


Garbage. If you put something on SALE, people assume that they are ACTUALLY BUYING SOMETHING THEY CAN OWN.

That's all there really is to it. If you don't agree with this principle, then don't make a living from selling digital content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DataDay
People like the OP are doing more damage than good. They might generate some sympathy if the localization process keeps their cost ridiculously high, but there is no excuse for ignoring the license agreement of software some kid feels entitled to, which ultimately hurts the developers.


I happen to be the "OP". And you are telling me that I can't have my basic consumer rights upheld because, well, "it would hurt the industry"...

Why should I CARE about an industry that IMPOSES ITS WISHES AND DEMANDS on me, even though I AM THE ONE PAYING HARD CASH FOR THE PRODUCT?

Don't you see the fallacy in your own arguments? At all??

Quote:
Originally Posted by DataDay
I wish people would grow up and stop hurting the development within the industry they claim to love.


I wish that the industry would GROW UP and STOP TAKING AWAY MY BASIC CONSUMER RIGHTS, along with THE BASIC CONSUMER RIGHTS OF EVERYONE ELSE WHO BUYS GAMES AND SOFTWARE.

If you cannot play nice with consumers, and you don't believe that "CUSTOMER IS KING", then I strongly suggest leaving this particular market.

Go sell used cars instead, or put your capital into global shipping or something.

If upholding very, very basic consumer rights - like the right to own something you buy - is something that is DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO ACCEPT then you probably shouldn't be in business at all.

Get out of gaming and software and find yourself another market to screw over.

My 2 Cents.
 
Old 02-12-2013, 09:15 PM   #111
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Here's an interesting video that might give people some insight into the struggles of developers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zJd...be_gdata_player

It's rather long, but if you can make it about half way I think you'll see the point.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:30 AM   #112
nudelsalat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DataDay
It's not. See you even admit to being willing to give 30€ for a product, but instead of that being given to those who develop, publish and distribute, it goes to some retailer instead.

No, what I was trying to say is, I will not buy from a publisher if the price is too high for my taste(>30€). If it is, I may buy it second hand(<20€) but I would not buy the original at all. This means you can't count me as a loss because I would not have bought that game if there was no second hand.
If the price is right, I gladly buy from the publisher(except if it's always online or register online drm, this lowers the value of a game to a maximum of ~15€ to me).

Last edited by nudelsalat : 02-13-2013 at 07:38 AM.
 
Old 02-13-2013, 07:30 AM   #113
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