Cinema 4d

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  1 Week Ago
Cinema 4d

hello all,

I looked around a bit prior to posting and did;t find the topic, but I wanted to ask about Cinema 4d. I am, what I consider a fluid Maya and 3ds Max user, and I've seen Cinema 4d popping up more and more often.

I realize, that since Autodesk acquired Maya a lot has gone wrong and right, and since Adobe has paired with Cinema that there is a lot to go right there.... Is it worth learning a third software for beter compatibility?

There are upsides to all. Personally even with years of Max under my belt I find that it is a clunky program, though many swear by it, and hate Maya, my native program. What are the opinions and where is the future headed?

I apologize that I'm a bit out of the loop, I'm sure many of these topics have been discussed and I'm not trying to write a post that causes a flame war. Just looking for some advice on my future as a artist in the industry.
 
  1 Week Ago
C4D has a great User Interface and fast workflow. It is a very usable 3D app.

It is weaker than Maya in Character Animation, however, and has no fluids simulation tools built in. The particles side of C4D is also out of date. It does have built-in Matchmoving/Camera Tracking, which is something most 3D apps lack.

Using C4D can get expensive - C4D itself is not cheap, and you'll probably need plugins like XParticles, TurbulenceFD or Effex  (fluids simulation) and a good 3rd party render engine to make the most of it.

There are workflow benefits to working with it - it is a quick, stable software with a lovely UI layout. It also has bridges to software like AfterEffects.

But Maxon has been slow in recent years to add some features that many 3D softs have had for years.

C4D seems to be undergoing a core rewrite right now, so people expect C4D R20 to potentially bring major new features.
 
  6 Days Ago
Hi in what area of CG/3D do you focus?


If you are a Character animator
who needs alot of Dynamic action with humans (not cute "critters") 
with  alot of  voice dialog  or 
VFX artist needing film quality  built in Particles & Fluids.
or if you plan to work in the 3D/VFX industry as a skilled
Employee,
Then C4D Would not be a good choice
at its current price point IMHO .




Now if indeed your area is general 3D Graphics
visualization or broadcast graphics
then Cinema4D may be a good option for you.
 
  6 Days Ago
Don't bother. That's my opinion. The 'ease of use' feature is only helpful when you are starting out. Once you are proficient, you can operate in any software. Cinema is over priced and under spec. Every release is a disappointment. Go to any forum, the conversation is the same, if you want to achieve anything, you need a plug in. And essentially, that is what C4D is now - a hub for other peoples plug-ins. Expensive plug-ins too.

You'd be a fool to invest in this overpriced 'app' when you already have developed and powerful tools at your disposal.

Houdini is where all Cinema users are jumping too now. Maxon took the piss for too long in my opinion. Their secrecy is uncalled for too. They seem to love cloaking themselves in mystery and keeping their users in the dark - Apple-like. But the big reveal is always an abortion - laughable - pitiful. Apparently, R20 is going to be the turn around edition - a new start. And then the big catch up starts all over again. On and on it will go, 5 years behind everyone else all over again. In the meantime even Blender users are enjoying a flip solver and fluids. Enough is enough I say.

Just get Houdini if you fancy a third app. I have. I'll miss C4D's simplistic UI and simplistic features. I'll even miss the overly helpful community who loyally stand by Maxon. But if you need anything more than spinning letters and 'surreal' shapes swirling around, turn around now.
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  6 Days Ago
I'm waiting for an update to Ray Dream Studio myself, before I jump ship from Maya.

Joking. C4D isn't that bad.
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"Like stone we battle the wind... Beat down and strangle the rains..."
 
  6 Days Ago
Originally Posted by grrinc: Don't bother. That's my opinion. The 'ease of use' feature is only helpful when you are starting out. Once you are proficient, you can operate in any software. Cinema is over priced and under spec. Every release is a disappointment. Go to any forum, the conversation is the same, if you want to achieve anything, you need a plug in. And essentially, that is what C4D is now - a hub for other peoples plug-ins. Expensive plug-ins too.

You'd be a fool to invest in this overpriced 'app' when you already have developed and powerful tools at your disposal.

Houdini is where all Cinema users are jumping too now. Maxon took the piss for too long in my opinion. Their secrecy is uncalled for too. They seem to love cloaking themselves in mystery and keeping their users in the dark - Apple-like. But the big reveal is always an abortion - laughable - pitiful. Apparently, R20 is going to be the turn around edition - a new start. And then the big catch up starts all over again. On and on it will go, 5 years behind everyone else all over again. In the meantime even Blender users are enjoying a flip solver and fluids. Enough is enough I say.

Just get Houdini if you fancy a third app. I have. I'll miss C4D's simplistic UI and simplistic features. I'll even miss the overly helpful community who loyally stand by Maxon. But if you need anything more than spinning letters and 'surreal' shapes swirling around, turn around now.

I would argue that ease of use affects your work every day, not just during an initial learning period. There are many tasks which you will find slow and complicated to do in most 3D software which can be done with relative ease in C4D, and, as ever, vica versa. Every app has its strengths and weaknesses. C4D lacks in particle/fluid/smoke abilities, and its character animation is acceptable, but not the best by any stretch. You'll also find it bogs down beyond 40,000 objects, though that can be fixed by flattening down layers you don't need. On the flip side it has some of the best built in tool in certain areas; It is the king of motion graphics, the hair abilities are still great, the sketch rendering system is still up there and the sculpting tools may be enough to avoid having to go down the zbrush route.

Quote: "if you want to achieve anything, you need a plug in"

Yes there are plugins, small script things and big heavy things like particle and fluid systems, but whether you need any depends on the work you want to do. I personally run it almost entirely stock. If I needed sloshing fluids and exploding plumes of smoke then yeah, I'd have plugins; but personally I do arch viz, product viz, motion graphics, building projections, theatre shows and such. Given the OP never mentioned what he does for a living, its a bit presumptuous to tell him he'll need lots of plugins

Quote: "Every release is a disappointment. Go to any forum"
"I'll even miss the overly helpful community who loyally stand by Maxon"

Well you're gonna have to make your mind up on that one, which is it, loyal fanboys who stand by Maxon no matter what or endless complaining? Im reasonably sure I can go to any software forum on announcement day and read my fair share of complaining that X, Y and Z haven't been addressed.

Quote: "Houdini is where all Cinema users are jumping too now"

Pretty sure all the users of one of the easiest to use 3D apps aren't all suddenly jumping ship to one of the hardest. Seeing as neither of us has a single number on how many users each app has, let alone how many are moving from one to another, thats just speculation.
Quote: Their secrecy is uncalled for too. They seem to love cloaking themselves in mystery and keeping their users in the dark - Apple-like.

Agreed, I'm not a fan of the way they conduct themselves like this. I've yet to see the C4D release where any of the content they were keeping secret would have mattered to any of their competitors. Unfortunately there seems to be a general culture of sticking to rigid plans and rarely interacting with the users; It would be nice if they opened up and acted human for once but I don't see that changing any time soon.

Though, every company has their faults. Would I trade in Maxon keeping everything a secret, in exchange for them buying out competition to asset strip and kill the software?, not really. Would I trade in a lack of decent updates some years for being bent over a barrel for forced monthly subscriptions? Unlikely.
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  6 Days Ago
Originally Posted by pixel-sculptor: hello all,

I looked around a bit prior to posting and did;t find the topic, but I wanted to ask about Cinema 4d. I am, what I consider a fluid Maya and 3ds Max user, and I've seen Cinema 4d popping up more and more often.

I realize, that since Autodesk acquired Maya a lot has gone wrong and right, and since Adobe has paired with Cinema that there is a lot to go right there.... Is it worth learning a third software for beter compatibility?

There are upsides to all. Personally even with years of Max under my belt I find that it is a clunky program, though many swear by it, and hate Maya, my native program. What are the opinions and where is the future headed?

I apologize that I'm a bit out of the loop, I'm sure many of these topics have been discussed and I'm not trying to write a post that causes a flame war. Just looking for some advice on my future as a artist in the industry.

You will find that Cinema 4D CA tools are actually pretty similar to Mayas, the key difference being that Maya is still the industries powerhorse for pipeline work and Cinema 4D is not as fast with multiple rigs as Maya is. The Character builder in Cinema 4D though is something you might take a second look at, just like the NLA toolset.
Adobe has not paired with Maxon, there is some cooperation going on in regards to After Effects and Maxon provides a similar solution for AI users.
While some in this thread seem to be unsatisfied with the progress Cinema 4D made in recent years you might take a look at the threads in the Cinema 4D sub forum following the last couple of releases, they paint a much more diverse picture.
In general Cinema 4D is targeted towards fast turnaround in small studios, not exactly the target of Maya or Houdini. Where Houdini excels are the very technical aspects of CG, While SideFX has been adjusting their UI and UX towards a more general audience in recent years it still remains a bit daunting, at least to me.
If you are looking to broaden your horizon i would recommend looking at both CInema 4D and Houdini, one for it's ease of use and fast turnaround, the other for it's sheer power of parametric animation and simulation.
Where the future is headed is anyone's guess, what we can safely assume at this point though is that game engines will be involved, so maybe take a closer look at UE and Unity as well.
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The views expressed on this post are my personal opinions and do not represent the views of my employer.
 
  6 Days Ago
Originally Posted by Shrek: "You will find that Cinema 4D CA tools are actually pretty
 similar to Mayas, the key difference being that Maya is still
 the industries powerhorse for pipeline work and Cinema 4D
 is not as fast with multiple rigs as Maya is.....
The Character builder in Cinema 4D though is something you might
take a second look at, just like the NLA toolset."



To the OP:
 Be aware that Maxon C4D's Character tools are far below Maya
 as C4D does not have a viable,standard HumanIK control rig that can accept motion
capture without tedious manual work each time.

Being "Fast with multiple rigs" or having some cute little 
"Character builder" only matters if one
has a viable retargeting system for large or even medium productions
involving crowds.

 The C4D  so called "retarget tag" is complete rubbish, that is why 
former C4D animators like Brian Horgan moved to Maya.

To even attempt massive human battle sequences such as those seen in 
productions like HBO's "Game of Thrones" , with Maxon C4D, 
would be a masochistic excercise in self Flagellation.
https://area.autodesk.com/customer-...rones-season-7/


Also A viable cloth solver is part of a professional Character animation system.
C4D's  Dynamic cloth system is  put to shame by freeware consumer
Apps like Daz Studio....even the vestigial Poser can do better with dynamic clothing
as C4D "clothilde" can only solve: bedding sheets,table cloths, window curtains & Flags
NOT actual Garments on people.

Also there is no Viable native option for lipsynch from
prerecorded audio in C4D.. Again this would need to done manually
unlike Daz Studio or Iclone 



I use Reallusion Iclone Pro 6.5 with 3DXchange pipeline to build motion
in realtime and retarget to Daz Genesis rigs( with one mouse click)
that I render in C4D via .obj/MDD from Daz
and as soon as I get my texture& lighting issues sorted with my seat of Lightwave
2015, It will supplant C4D as a final render destination as it supports
my Iclone/DAZ/ MDD workflow natively
without  the need for Keith young's Riptide pro plugin for C4D.


I also Use natural Motion's Endorphin for Character ragdoll physics
Again it exports BVH Data that retargets natively to Daz studio and
Iclone pro rigs. 


C4D's nonlinear system pales in comparsion to Iclone Pro or even  Daz studio
particularly when maintaining Character orientation when combining
clips from various motion sources
Daz studio NLA "aniblok" system can store any keyframable morph informatin
such as eye blinks,facial expressions and looped breathing .

Just some points to consider when you hear C4D loyalists 
Comparing C4D's character  animation tool set  to Autodesk Maya.
 
  5 Days Ago
Originally Posted by grrinc: Don't bother. That's my opinion. The 'ease of use' feature is only helpful when you are starting out. Once you are proficient, you can operate in any software. Cinema is over priced and under spec. Every release is a disappointment. Go to any forum, the conversation is the same, if you want to achieve anything, you need a plug in. And essentially, that is what C4D is now - a hub for other peoples plug-ins. Expensive plug-ins too.

You'd be a fool to invest in this overpriced 'app' when you already have developed and powerful tools at your disposal.

Houdini is where all Cinema users are jumping too now. Maxon took the piss for too long in my opinion. Their secrecy is uncalled for too. They seem to love cloaking themselves in mystery and keeping their users in the dark - Apple-like. But the big reveal is always an abortion - laughable - pitiful. Apparently, R20 is going to be the turn around edition - a new start. And then the big catch up starts all over again. On and on it will go, 5 years behind everyone else all over again. In the meantime even Blender users are enjoying a flip solver and fluids. Enough is enough I say.

Just get Houdini if you fancy a third app. I have. I'll miss C4D's simplistic UI and simplistic features. I'll even miss the overly helpful community who loyally stand by Maxon. But if you need anything more than spinning letters and 'surreal' shapes swirling around, turn around now.
I am a C4D user, but I just integrated Houdini into my pipeline for digital assets and Zbrush for sculpting,

I would advise to ignore ranting like this. Im sure someone who is proficient with 3dsmax knows you can achieve a lot with the base software -Max is also a hub for plugins- especially since 3dsmax didnt had fluids until last year. Is not C4D's fault this guy cant work past spinning letters and shapes. You can find a lot of good examples of modeling / rendering in C4D on 3dworld magazine, the problem I see with many C4D users, isnt related to Maxon, most people seems to have just discovered HDRI, so they render a bunch of objects with reflection and call it a day. Or some artists doesn't have background theory studios like you need to have when working with Maya / Houdini, also "Everyday" work examples are nice but it doesn't represent what can be done with a software, it just represent what can be done in a couple of hours.

Maya Mash is behind C4D. For plugins, right now X-Particles have cloth / fluids (water, fire, smoke) / particle sim / vdb, all for the price of one.  Fire is still in progress but XP5 will only improve what is already doable right now. Everyone know as well, very few softwares and artists live without plugins (Maya/Max has FumeFX even though Maya has native fluids). Houdini is great but Mantra is kinda slow, it doesnt have a good sculpting tool, it doesnt have easy to work splines, and modeling can be tiresome just to name a few weaknesses.

Having said that, I too agree in Houdini, that is only if you have the time and patience to learn it, and to use it. Parametric work is great -if you ever need it. But, as programming goes, not everyone can be proficient. So is not as simple as an answer as "just get Houdini". If you dont learn programming, not only you wont use it as intended, but you'll find a lot of walls. See any tutorial that advertise themselves they teach without programming. At one point the instructor will say "I'll just gonna use a tiny little code to do this")

In short, every software has is strenghts and weakness. It all depends of your personal needs, your workflow, and if you value speed over flexibility, bear in mind, if you plan to work in the movie industry 1) Maya is still the industry standard 2) you need to specialize, so you may never see fluids, ever.

One last thing, stay with 3dsmax, maya and get Zbrush. Is a fantastic tool to use.
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  5 Days Ago
And.............................................it starts.
These kinds of questions always polarize the user base.

As people have already pointed out. C4D is very much like MAYA lite. Where it can be much faster to do things like very basic CA and Motion graphics work than in Maya.
But that speed comes at the cost of not having all the fancy tools that Maya has.
C4D will not "broaden" a Maya user's skills. It will just make some of them simpler in some cases.
The real question to ask yourself is not whether or not it's a good program. But whether or not it's worth spending thousands of dollars on it just to simplify certain tasks.
That's a very subjective question. Trying out the demo is the only way to answer it.

-ScottA
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  5 Days Ago
If C4D sounds expensive (yes it can be), compared to Maya which is subscription only at $180/month which is $2,160/year. So every year you are paying $2K apposed to C4D which you buy one license, or $675/year if you wish to get yearly updates. And regarding plugins, I don't know any Maya artist that doesn't have a long list of plugins and scripts at their disposal. 
 
  5 Days Ago
Originally Posted by Scott Ayers: And.............................................it starts.
These kinds of questions always polarize the user base.

I agree with you... I only said Mash was behind Mograph. Last time I used Dynamics in Mash didnt worked if you rotated the collider  object, while in C4D mograph is fully integrated. You can clone pretty much anything, even tools from plugins like RF or XP. I didnt talked about CA because It was already discussed. Anyway, we dont know the OP needs, but pretty much all C4D plugins are simple to use  ( Xparticles / TFD ) and most of them are aimed towards broadcast and advertising industry (Dem Earth / Realflow).

I recommended Zbrush because learning it will open up modeling skills. Live Booleans for hard surface are really great.
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  4 Days Ago
I've seen quite a few job postings lately specifying C4D experience, but I can't see it taking over. Anecdotally most motion graphics people I encounter use C4D, but I've also seen a lot of them move onto Houdini once they hit its hard limitations (which may or may not matter for OP anyway). If you're going to learn another software then skip C4D and go straight to Houdini; it actually offers something unique that Maya and 3DS doesn't. I think it's pretty hard to overstate how powerful Houdini's procedural tools are but it's also not really for modeling, you'll still want to do most of that elsewhere. 

IMO Maya is going to die a very slow death and if Blender ups its game it could get much more adoption. 

What's the forum's opinion on Modo?
 
  3 Days Ago
I think it's important not to get too emotionally invested in these types of conversations. It's software - it's just a tool. We don't have to LIKE one more than another, or dislike one that we don't use. But it never, ever hurts to spend even a little time learning the basics in these big-dog programs.

I've been in arch/viz using Maya for a decade now, and have had to turn down way too many job possibilities because they used Max instead. That's my fault for being such a loyalist - I should have at least learned the basics in Max, if nothing more than to nail a few easy gigs along the way. Turns out, not that many people or studios use Maya for architecture, for no other reason than that Max had a stronger version of Vray first. I wasted my time in mental ray instead, and slightly regret it. But had I simply learned enough to render an imported scene from Rhino/Maya in Max, it could have really helped out over the years.

An anecdote. Hope it helps - try C4D for a week and give it a fair shot.
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  3 Days Ago
I don't recommended for C4D cause it is expensive and it does not at all as 3D animation or archi/viz so it can make motion design, 3d characters and some VFX but not good in comparison to Maya. If you want best 3D tool to learn thus Maya is king for all domain : Vfx, 3D animation as Pixar, etc... If you want cheap so Modo is very good at modeling for archi/viz, 3D Characters, props, VFX but animation is quite weak or Lightwave 3D it does everything for big VFX, 3d Anim... warning it have two app separate and pretty old in logic if you like it so good for you.
Of course there is Blender is so free that it does all : VFX, composition, games engine, killer modeler, great animation + NLA, script python for games and UI/Tools, sculpting as zbrush, 2d animation, etc... One hit : Blender is quite hard to learn but in time you spend more you will be more like good and more you will like it !

Hope that help you.

Last edited by threedslider : 3 Days Ago at 05:49 PM.
 
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