Element 3D and Cinema

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Old 07 July 2013   #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamT
I guess I don't see the big attraction to E3D. If you impose the same limitations that E3D imposes in Cinema, Cinema's standard renderer is blazingly fast. Not real time, to be sure, but you can certainly spit out a shiny 3D logo animation in a matter of minutes.


Now add in DOF and Motion Blur that can be handled in AE with E3D and you'll start to see the first big attraction. I keep coming back to tweaking the fake textures as I just worked on a project where I had to adjust (because I can't rotate) the environment map in Cinema, test render, adjust, test render, adjust, test render. Took a while. I achieved the same thing rotating the reflection map in E3D in less than a minute with real time feedback. Now turn on Refraction. End of the argument.
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Old 07 July 2013   #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by LucentDreams
I knew I should have kept the whole original post, as I did cover this. you can't compare either to C4D in price, certainly not octane as it can't do squat without C4D. Element can do a fair bit particularly, text but it can't do all of C4D.

If you doing text and occasional spinning logos than great, Element might be enough and yes Maxon does stand a chance to lose some business to it. Most will still need to make/do more with their content. C4D will still be needed so any cost argument is invalid, especially since you also then have the throw in the cost of AE for element, which also won't work anymore if you choose to not pay a monthly fee to adobe now, unlike a few months ago where if you bought the plugin you owned both the software and plugin so you could use it for as long as you like.

If you honestly feel that Element 3D doesn't need C4D then why are you comparing it to the 3k version of C4D cause it certainly doesn't compete with that version with it's lack of GI, Cloth, Hair, Dynamics, Caustics, Volumetrics, Cartoon Rendering, Character animation....



You COMPLETELY misinterpreted what I said. I have never stated anywhere in my posts to that Octane or E3D were replacementes for Cinema, I think I've been pretty clear that I've been talking about the renderer only. My point was that if someone has just spent 3K on Cinema, they're going to go ahead and pop an extra $400 for E3D and or Octane, making Cinemas render engines useless and a bit of a waste of money, both for the user and Maxon. I'm sorry you wrote that much, but I completely agree and wasn't saying that at all. Which is why I want a GPU based render option in cinema. I want everything that is Cinema plus render speed. Hopefully I'm clear now.
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Old 07 July 2013   #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyan
You COMPLETELY misinterpreted what I said. I have never stated anywhere in my posts to that Octane or E3D were replacements for Cinema
Yes, I guess it wasn't clear it seemed more like you were comparing the prices, not complaining baout it in addition. To me plugins are plugins for a reason. Theres a big app with a huge variety of user bases to meet the needs of, so plugins at whatever cost, are there to meet certain need/s demands.

The argument for an OGL renderer, falls under the same roof as turbulence 4D, xparticles, storm tracer, krakatoa etc. Sucks to have to buy these things, but for maxon to make competitors for all of them well they'd have to grow their team substantially. or they get implementations that simply don't compare to the third party version and people complain about them being pointless, like sculpting. How many have said it was pointless to do because Zbrush does it better? If Maxon does make a dedicated volumetric point/sprite renderer how many will wonder why when krakatoa does it better. Oh and to clarify my stance on this, I was one that opposed them spending so much time on a sculpting system. I love the sculpting in C4D personally, but it sucks to know you have something okay, but don't have.. I dunno, a useful version of bodypaint for example, because of it.

Viewport is always something that needs improvement and functionality, , and I do think with cineware's capabilities it might inspire them to devote more to that type of a workflow, but it also depend son what those developers also have to work on that strongly benefits more than just the one userbase.
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Old 07 July 2013   #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by LucentDreams
Yes, I guess it wasn't clear it seemed more like you were comparing the prices, not complaining baout it in addition.


I offer a *full* apology for being unclear . Sometimes the brain fills in when it shouldn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucentDreams
The argument for an OGL renderer, falls under the same roof as turbulence 4D, xparticles, storm tracer, krakatoa etc.


I don't think I agree with that. Everything you listed are niche items where everyone needs rendering and I think most projects could be done using an OGL renderer. I think with a few more enhancements Cinemas standard renderer could be easily replaced with an OGL renderer and it would be huge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucentDreams
Sucks to have to buy these things, but for maxon to make competitors for all of them well they'd have to grow their team substantially. or they get implementations that simply don't compare to the third party version and people complain about them being pointless, like sculpting. How many have said it was pointless to do because Zbrush does it better? If Maxon does make a dedicated volumetric point/sprite renderer how many will wonder why when krakatoa does it better. Oh and to clarify my stance on this, I was one that opposed them spending so much time on a sculpting system. I love the sculpting in C4D personally, but it sucks to know you have something okay, but don't have.. I dunno, a useful version of bodypaint for example, because of it.


Agreed. I wonder why some decisions like that are made at the behest of actual useful new features and longstanding broken features that are also useful are ignored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucentDreams
Viewport is always something that needs improvement and functionality, , and I do think with cineware's capabilities it might inspire them to devote more to that type of a workflow, but it also depend son what those developers also have to work on that strongly benefits more than just the one userbase.


I can't see how having an OGL and/or a GPU Octane-like renderer wouldn't benefit someone.
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Old 07 July 2013   #50
Well, I can't let this thread go with no response as rendering is really my thing. I'm in Troyan's boat about GPU renderer's being the next big deal. I've actually put my money where my mouth is so to speak. I've invested substantially in graphics cards in my studio just for Octane. I went a little mental. I now have like 15 machines with either qud 680's or Titans. You can say I'm really into Octane.

I don't know that Maxon is ever going to create a GPU renderer. I sort of doubt it. It's a MAJOR undertaking from what I understand. That's OK with me. Octane fills the niche for my just fine.

The real fundamental issue for me is I can get to good lighting and texturing very quickly with Octane. Like minutes instead of all day (formerly the case even with Vray). That's HUGE for me and my shop. My guys LOVE rendering in Octane now. (Kicking and screaming going in).

The other thing is next year high end graphics cards will be twice as fast. Boom. Dump the old ones on Ebay and half my render times again. LOVE that. And the next year and so on.

Just my thoughts...

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Old 09 September 2013   #51
Star Treck title sequence

Star Trek title sequence done in AE using Element 3D. This is what I'm talking about. Maxon and Andrew need to collaborate.
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Old 09 September 2013   #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyan
Star Treck title sequence

Star Trek title sequence done in AE using Element 3D. This is what I'm talking about. Maxon and Andrew need to collaborate.


Hey Troyan, yes, that's a GREAT example of the power of the $150 plugin. Of course Andrew knows it inside out and pushes it to the limit. It really is an eye opener on what you can do with it.

I come from an Electric Image Animation System background so I get the "fake" rendering and having reflection maps vs real reflections. Sometimes you need to decide when you need fast and when you need a "real" renderer. Each project is different and it's good to have all the different tools at your disposal.

Technlogy is pushing forward in many respects and now you can see people filming and shooting in high-def with cellphones or prosumer cameras and coming up with great results.

Also the cost of entry of the software is getting much cheaper. How much did AfterEffects used to cost and now you can start working with it for $20-50 a month and even getting the whole Adobe CC Suite if you choose (depending on your needs).

In the end talent is what wil prevail not the tool or how much it costs , don't you think?

Have a great weekend all.

fjv

P.D. Nice test in post #11
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Last edited by velarde : 09 September 2013 at 09:30 PM. Reason: Added text
 
Old 09 September 2013   #53
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