The C4D-NGen1-ReVision Design Brief : No More MSA's - Product Restructuring

Become a member of the CGSociety

Connect, Share, and Learn with our Large Growing CG Art Community. It's Free!

REPLY TO THREAD
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  03 March 2018
If Cinema 4D was more affordable, (i.e a hell of a lot cheaper, not the price of a new car) , there would be more people that would be buying it rather than using pirated copies. Making it commercially available to all computer/software stores online like Ebuyer, Scan, or even frigging Tesco...and you would have a huge consumer market to develop for, instead of a tiny percentage of the world and 3D software market as it currently is and from there, you open the opportunity for capital investment to pay for more development and innovation. Freezing users out from upgrading in the future is ridiculous as well. With Prpellerheads Reason 1.0 for example, which was first released in 2001, if you bought it for £290 back then, I could if I was still on that version, still upgrade for the same price as someone who was on Reason 9.5 to version 10 and that's not 8, but 17 years later lol. 

If other software companies can do it, there's no reason why Maxon can't.
     
__________________
C4D R11.5 ZBrush4 P-CS6 | Filmscore / Trance / Ambient - 27 on S-Cloud 16 on S-Click
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by -/\-Scott-M-C4D-/\-: If Cinema 4D was more affordable, (i.e a hell of a lot cheaper, not the price of a new car) , there would be more people that would be buying it rather than using pirated copies. Making it commercially available to all computer/software stores online like Ebuyer, Scan, or even frigging Tesco...and you would have a huge consumer market to develop for, instead of a tiny percentage of the world and 3D software market as it currently is and from there, you open the opportunity for capital investment to pay for more development and innovation.

If I were a pirate who doesn't want to pay 3600$, why should I pay 360$ either? How low must the price be to attract spontaneous, "kinda serious", "experimental" or learning customers in addition to the rest of the customer base? If I make my software cheaper by a factor of ten, I need ten times as many paying customers just to keep the baseline. Is that feasible? Is there a need? How many pirates are there who could be converted? At what price point? Where's the sweet spot? How complex may a software be if it aims at the masses? How would it affect the support?

There are a lot of questions around that wild guess... and remember, once you go down with the price, it would be extremely difficult to raise it again if the results turn out to be unsatisfying.
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by Rectro: "Scott there has been some big additions to C4D since v12, it just depends on if the additions are of benifit to you which I can understand if some are not.  I do hope r20 is a substantial upgrade in general in which all users benefit from, but I have to except that I will not benifit as much as others as I have external apps dealing with other dedicated areas in which C4D cant be expected to compete with so for me "a minority" to gain from r20 it would have to be in the modelling department, and character animation improvements, and overall speed.  If they have the stats in front of them showing how many users they that left with older versions, they would do well to give them a substantial discount to r20 to get them back on board."





Like Scot, I still use Studio 11.5

To be honest I am less bothered at the  prospect of having to
Buy my way back into R20 at full price and more bothered 
at  likely having to( again)buy into all of R20 compatible external solutions 
( Xparticles etc.... ) just to get a new R20 based pipeline
back up to the Capabilities I have already Cobbled with R11.5
and my many external  Apps over the years.

Particularly in the Areas of Character motion creation, retargeting
lipsinc& Dynamic Garment simulation etc.


These are the areas that Maxon has consistantly shown  ZERO interest in being competitive with Applications that cost less. 


And from the sound of things, this core rewrite may break alot of existing external plugins (for a while at least)giving me even more 
pause not to  consider jumping into a potential upgrade Quagmire

For other Applications upgrading always brings an increase in my Focus area capabilities..  not so much the case with C4D.
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by Cairyn: If I were a pirate who doesn't want to pay 3600$, why should I pay 360$ either? How low must the price be to attract spontaneous, "kinda serious", "experimental" or learning customers in addition to the rest of the customer base? If I make my software cheaper by a factor of ten, I need ten times as many paying customers just to keep the baseline. Is that feasible? Is there a need? How many pirates are there who could be converted? At what price point? Where's the sweet spot? How complex may a software be if it aims at the masses? How would it affect the support?

There are a lot of questions around that wild guess... and remember, once you go down with the price, it would be extremely difficult to raise it again if the results turn out to be unsatisfying.

By keeping the price very high, you are by the very essence, limiting the numbers of software to be sold. By lowering the cost, you open the door to having the product sell by a factor of 20 to 30 or more than the factor of 10 in which the price is cut. Just look at Affinity Photo & Designer by Serif, a direct competitor to Photoshop / Illustrator.... they are just £48 each and that's without any subscription.
 
In 2002 I upgraded from a fully functional version of C4D 5.5 provided by PC Format magazine to version 6 for as little as £200, I didn't question it... £200 to £400 for a commercial piece of 3D software from a general consumer point of view is reasonable. The world is changing, it's pretty messed up and economies are in dire strates (not the band), around Europe...just look at Greece....South America... Most people don't use pirated software because they want to rip off a company, but because they want to learn and improve their life and others, and some simply have no choice.

There isn't even a free cut down version that works fully without watermarks any more for users to use.... there is no incentive even for people who otherwise wouldn't have looked at getting into the 3D creation world. There's one thing  of companies making money and there's another thing of companies that don't give a damn about the end users, and the product they deliver. 

           
__________________
C4D R11.5 ZBrush4 P-CS6 | Filmscore / Trance / Ambient - 27 on S-Cloud 16 on S-Click

Last edited by -/\-Scott-M-C4D-/\- : 03 March 2018 at 10:17 PM.
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by -/\-Scott-M-C4D-/\-: By keeping the price very high, you are by the very essence, limiting the numbers of software to be sold. By lowering the cost, you open the door to having the product sell by a factor of 20 to 30 or more than the factor of 10 in which the price is cut. Just look at Affinity Photo & Designer by Serif, a direct competitor to Photoshop / Illustrator.... they are just £48 each and that's without any subscription.
          
That's just guesswork without real numbers to back that claim up. You don't even know the number of potential 3D users which by nature would be a ceiling for all combined sales. You're just providing wishful thinking because other companies with other products in other fields do it differently. I can't even call it a discussion because neither you nor me have any figures to support any solid calculation.

I suppose in this changed world you would download Blender now instead of using a free magazine CD version. And that's fine too.
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by Cairyn: That's just guesswork without real numbers to back that claim up. You don't even know the number of potential 3D users which by nature would be a ceiling for all combined sales. You're just providing wishful thinking because other companies with other products in other fields do it differently. I can't even call it a discussion because neither you nor me have any figures to support any solid calculation.

I suppose in this changed world you would download Blender now instead of using a free magazine CD version. And that's fine too.


It's simple maths and economics....not rocket science...



And oh , yes I did use Blender way back then (2001-02), along with True Space and a few others.... In fact I still have the Amiga floppy disk version from 1995 sitting in a box a few feet away... of Cinema 4D. 
__________________
C4D R11.5 ZBrush4 P-CS6 | Filmscore / Trance / Ambient - 27 on S-Cloud 16 on S-Click

Last edited by -/\-Scott-M-C4D-/\- : 03 March 2018 at 12:07 AM.
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by -/\-Scott-M-C4D-/\-: It's simple maths and economics....not rocket science...


Without real numbers, it's neither, actually.
And the less said about that diagram, the better.
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by Cairyn: Without real numbers, it's neither, actually.
And the less said about that diagram, the better.

Here's some real numbers relating to what Blackmagic did with one of their products, not too long ago.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/photo...on-9-announced/
__________________
C4D R11.5 ZBrush4 P-CS6 | Filmscore / Trance / Ambient - 27 on S-Cloud 16 on S-Click
 
  03 March 2018
All this is assuming that all products are equally useable for all customers and that there is no ceiling for the number of possible customers.
The problem is that with rising complexity of the software the number of potential customers decreases quite a lot.
3D DCC software is a niche within a niche, you can broaden the niche by creating variations of your product that cater different types of customers, but the over all pool of possible customers is still the same. Pointing to the size of a different niche doesn't validate anything here.
The 3D DCC market is not saturated by any means, but it is also not easy to generate new sales.
While for many small time and hobby users the asking price for the software is a big factor this is not true at all for most bigger businesses. For them the over all cost of generating the content they want and the time it takes are the deciding factors. Compared to manpower, training costs, fixed costs etc. the price for the software becomes just one more item on a long list. Most private users never have to do this calculation.
One thing that helps Maxon selling licenses is the MSA. The reason for that is totally alien to private users. Corporate users have a hard time justifying new investments. For them getting an upgrade is a fight against accountants and procurement rules and a rinse repeat every year. The MSA allows them to do the fight once and then they can spend their time on being productive.
Just an example on how the price was not important and neither was any specific feature of the software, but the effect is noticeable. Also it is a good reason why the MSA is here to stay
__________________
- www.bonkers.de -
The views expressed on this post are my personal opinions and do not represent the views of my employer.
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by -/\-Scott-M-C4D-/\-: Here's some real numbers relating to what Blackmagic did with one of their products, not too long ago.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/photo...on-9-announced/

Blackmagic is a Hardware Company. They Sell Software underpriced to promote their Hardware. That is the same like Apple giving their Software away for Free. Thats not at all the same as the Business of MAXON. 
__________________
____
Cinema 4D Studio MSA, Zbrush, CS6, 3DCoat, Moi
Twitter: @holgerbiebrach
www.c4dStuff.com

HB_ModellingBundle
 
  03 March 2018
Yes and also the point Srek made that there are many more potential video editors than 3D users even if 3D printing might make them closer in the  future.
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by -/\-Scott-M-C4D-/\-: Here's some real numbers relating to what Blackmagic did with one of their products, not too long ago.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/photo...on-9-announced/
It's not a good example . Adobe will fit better here
Ok. I want to become a legit customer . But $3,695.00 for Cinema 4D Studio will cost me a leg and arm to pay at once .
Other versions like Prime,broadcast are just a joke.
I can pay 1000$ just right now but for what, Cinema 4D Prime
There are short term licenses but they are not available in my country.
I don't ask to make c4d 50$ per month.
I am using Maya legally for 150$ per month right now.
I am using pirated c4d too.
I have a lot of cool work made with c4d  but i am not posting it because ...i am a c4d pirate. 
...
I am a legit customer of insydium, jawset,otoy,redshift because i can afford they products.
...
I will be more than happy if maxon can give me option to use c4d Studio version for $150 per month until i pay full price and receive permanent license .
Because i am not a big studio .
...
Maxon representative can freely contact me to discuss it or to sew me . you choose.
Sry,English is not my native language.

In this topic someone is selling his r17 studio license for 1000$
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthr...?f=47&t=1490601
Why Maxon can't do it ?

Last edited by uncia : 03 March 2018 at 11:35 AM.
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by Srek: While for many small time and hobby users the asking price for the software is a big factor this is not true at all for most bigger businesses. For them the over all cost of generating the content they want and the time it takes are the deciding factors. Compared to manpower, training costs, fixed costs etc. the price for the software becomes just one more item on a long list. Most private users never have to do this calculation.
I agree. But I not have a different price (price) for individual users and another one (bigger) for business? In my case, I convinced my last company to buy two versions of Cinema 4D Studio, which is something in a country where most people pirate the software (Brazil). But as a individual, I only had the money to buy the BodyPaint version (and I'm still in version r18). I think the lone individual should have to pay only something like U$300 by the Studio version. 
 
  03 March 2018
There is no legitimate, rational business reason for Maxon to lower its pricing
or drop the MSA scheme.
They clearly have a core group of loyalists who work primarily
in the broadcast and Arch vis industry and are willing to pay what C4D costs.

Much like Apple and the Iphone users.


If indeed Arch vis and broadcast graphics is your focus area,
Cinema4D is still your best option frankly.


Character animators,Game content devs &VFX artist for film production are already using Houdini , Maya or even Max still.
And they are so doing because of the Tools  in those other apps
 not because they Can't afford C4D. 
 
reply share thread



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.