Don't you feel cg 3d is too demanding?

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  04 April 2013
Don't you feel cg 3d is too demanding?

Don't you feel cg 3d is too demanding? You need constantly to learn new programs, and perfect your skills. It takes so much time and efforts. Do you feel it pays off?

Last edited by mister3d : 04 April 2013 at 07:04 AM.
 
  04 April 2013
You sounded like you asked "do you think CG is too interesting and unlikely to make your job into a stale, adrift, lulling euthanasia of the brain?" AFAIC

No, if anything I find the average person in most CGI related fields hasn't gone a fraction of the length they should have had towards mastering the fundamentals or the tools of their craft.

New softwares hardly ever take more than a handful of days and some determination to learn if you understand what you're doing at a more intimate level than the UI instead of going through cookbook recipes of what buttons to click in what order, and I thoroughly enjoy occasionally picking a new one up when they toss their speciality on its head.
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  04 April 2013
Nah. But then I don't have that pressure either.

Back when I was intent on getting a jerb at Pixar (lol), I learned lots of software. But it seemed like no matter what software I tried (demos, trials, PLEs!) or bought (Silo, 3DCoat, zBrush!), I only improved in the technical aspect of the craft (edge loops, walk cycles, uv-unwrap!). As an artist, I didn't improve at all.

Eventually I realized that I should be drawing. I enrolled in a life-drawing course at school and drew more at home. I think I improved after that but lately I've kinda fallen out of it again (another story).

I think the lesson may be to not worry about the software. Just draw. Jaco's right, you can learn a program any day. Don't sweat it.
 
  04 April 2013
Ah, good answers. Looks like I just got tired. You couldn't be more right.
 
  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by mister3d: Ah, good answers. Looks like I just got tired. You couldn't be more right.

The feeling of being overwhelmed happens to mostly everybody after long enough.

For some people it's being genuinely tired of standards and status quo being upset, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it, for others it might be the sense that moving on to something else instead of further on you leave one thing for another with a sense of missed accomplishment.

That's why fundamentals and technologies are a better approach than techniques, you don't risk the latter, very little withers away when you move on or sideways.

At the end of the day it's a state of mind IMO, for some temporary, for some longer term. There is nothing wrong with it, plenty people have quit the industry on those grounds and are happier for it (just as many not so much though ).

Make sure it's not just a phase or the need to refocus and change how you learn rather than resisting the learning itself before you decide based on that feeling though.
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  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO: for others it might be the sense that moving on to something else instead of further on you leave one thing for another with a sense of missed accomplishment.

I worked as a texturer, then modeler, then a bit of viz (for a year), and now another cg job. I never, ever, felt "this is mine". That's why I never can stop, now I think maybe it's lighting which will make me feel this is what I need.

Originally Posted by ThE_JacO: That's why fundamentals and technologies are a better approach than techniques, you don't risk the latter, very little withers away when you move on or sideways.

Just phoned an art teacher, for 50$ I can attend twice a week drawing classes yay. Hopefully it adds some fun to sitting with the monitor.

Originally Posted by ThE_JacO: At the end of the day it's a state of mind IMO, for some temporary, for some longer term. There is nothing wrong with it, plenty people have quit the industry on those grounds and are happier for it (just as many not so much though ).

Make sure it's not just a phase or the need to refocus and change how you learn rather than resisting the learning itself before you decide based on that feeling though.


I always enjoyed music. I mean, I still play half an hour\hour a day the piano, and I have 86% of musical hearing accuracy (which means I can identify musical excerpts amongst similar with slight differences. 90% is something incredible). I can easily play by ear. I also enjoy singing, and some other stuff of artistic kind. It all makes my soul sing. I never feel anything like this doing cg. But hell, who doesn't enjoy those activities?
As Leigh thinks anyone can become as good as her, I somehow doubt it. When I compared myself to other people singing, I was surprised how bad people can be. I didn't realize what I have is a gift.
Some people think life is "all equal", like people experiencing the same amount of happiness etc. It's true some people think so. Isn't it outrageous? It's simple so much not true. Life is very unfair in this regard. I'd think if many people could live another lives for a week, they'd be totally devastated how shitty their life is. I'm always thinking about such things, and many people say it's strange. "Don't think about the past, don't compare to others". I always seek for alternative way.
Though, I must admit, many people are not happy with their lives, if not most, for this or another reason. When looking at them from the side, it's obvious many are gifted, but not in areas they're into. For example I have a colleague, who is constantly into some kind of pyramid, some kind of hierarchy for no apparent reason. First I though it's about money, but then I saw it's not. It's just some kind of power pushes him into this, his will to "conform" to the hierarchy. And if in his life there isn't, he will find it, whatever shit it will be. Be it church, or financial pyramid, or bitcoins. This will never stop.

I still kinda regret i wasn't given to music school and feel grumpy to my parents about it. Now I hit my 30's and it comes to my mind. But then I think, how hard it will be for me to become a musician making money with it. Or do I really want making money with it, whereas I can make it with cg.
How many jobs are enjoyable? To me I felt there are activities, which are closer to our "primitive" being, which can give us more feeling of accomplishment. I can't imagine someone sitting in the bank saying "do you want to open the deposite" all day feeling happy about it, or "welcome to costco i love you". Many jobs are like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8zNsUTWsOc

Originally Posted by fablefox: The question is, when do you actually finally say 'enough is enough' and try to focus on 'life' instead of 'success'. Time is limited.

There is an article on Yahoo recently:

http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/advi...-143425114.html

Looking back and looking forward, due to circumstances and other reasons, I think for me personally, enough is enough. Its fun to dream, but reality is another.

Looking at how experts and old hand being treated (including at Disney), and other articles mentioning the state of the industry, it going to stay as a hobby. I don't know if I'm still sad the the loss of my dad (over here you actually carry your father body into the grave, being one of the son). But after awhile, I realized that the world have changed.

It just changed.


I spent 10 years in cg already. I can only say mainly positive things about it though. The job itself is good mainly, or it's I've been lucky having such clients and studios. It's all what you compare it to. So, for those starting I'd say go for it. You can choose between working on-site and freelance, or you can start your own IP developing. Another thing in Ukraine I never say anyone got rich working for someone else. You always get the same fixed $. So you can be this or that, but good luck getting rich. i don't know how it's in London or other centers (I hope it's better), but not being able to buy yourself a flat in 5 years is a bad sign (well, you actually can in Ukraine, but that's it about it for 5 years, if that's the only thing you're saving up. Though it's more to d with Ukraine than cg). So, I'm judging from my perspective living in a poor country. But, if to compare to other "visual" jobs (illustration, web-illustration, etc), it's far more rewarding for me personally, anf generally pays better. So the choice was easy.
The problem I see being "successful" doesn't mean being happy. I can call myself successful in 3d, for what it's worth. Everything I did paid off. When you push your thing, then like a miracle you find your place in the market, like it have been waiting for you. I would really encourage any aspiring artist to continue therefore, especially if you have some artistic or technical background.
It's just when I discovered other things in life, it keeps me thinking if it's the only way and the best way to live? Especially i like eating cakes all day and watching tv.

Originally Posted by pipdixel: I never use 10% of my total skills on real jobs. They all ask for a different part. The only time I use my full skill set is for my own projects. And honestly, if I didn't do my own projects, I'd never push myself at all. Well, I'd also have left this crazy industry long ago. Easier ways to make a better living, but I love it and would be doing it for myself anyway. So why not make some money.

To me it definitely helped and does after working in a bit different areas. I even can't imagine how I could work without multiarea knowledge. And such companies like Crytek don't hire a single-tasked person any longer. A certain trend...

Definitely I'd say to anyone starting, get a solid, a very solid education! Spend 5 years drawing and developing your creative vision, it's a huge investment, which can make you rich developing your own products, and not just making something for companies. I regret I can't make a solid concept design, I need to learn heaps to make it. If only I'd know how valuable it may be. You can learn anything in 3d, but you will be still a "interpreter", not a creator. A bad concept design always was my main problem.

Originally Posted by pipdixel: On a side note, the people that hire us rarely know what we actually do. If you don't know one small aspect , like say, I don't do character rigging....well, how can you be an expert? Because I know the other 90% pretty damn well and you don't need it for this project haha. Its the strange mentality of people with the purse strings.

For a current commercial work (not my short), I use 8 programs for my pipeline. It's kinda weird and fun at the same time. I just realize I couldn't make it without years of experience, my head would simply blow. And, I still don't know rigging and animation, which is really needed for a proper understanding. So I'm nowhere near expert, just a starting one.

Originally Posted by Charkins: There are a lot of conditions that contribute to stress or success, but I would guess that CG isn't any more demanding than any other industry as long as you're clear on expectations and goals.

That's interesting, how can you be clear on expectations? When you start, you really see in in another light, and I'm sure it's for most people. Doubtfully people think "I will be that guy sitting in a shady office all day getting checks to pay for my family". People see it as dreams of creating worlds, experience, emotions. But it winds off I think. Isn't it? Though for many people it would be a sheer success. I can't really say, if it's a good thing or bad, or what you should expect from cg.

Originally Posted by Lagavulin16: On the other hand, I've learned that if you separate you're job from your life, there's a lot less stress. Treat the CG world as just your JOB. Leave work at work and when you leave the studio, don't think about it. It sounds like you may be starting to get burned out.

Indeed if you're working for several months, it becomes almost automatic (hopefully happens soon). But for example I'm thinking about taking drawing classes, how it counts to the job? Is it a part of it or not? Though I hear you, definitely working full-time and learning cg-tools is hard. I've been through this when being 20-22, and it's ineffective, and you barely sleep. Bad choice.

Originally Posted by pipdixel: If you can't say yes to this, then why do it? Seriously, there are so many less stressful and demanding ways to make the same level of income.

Like what for example?
Originally Posted by pipdixel: For me its YES . I wish I could no longer do other peoples works and ideas. If you can't sa yes to it, this sort of work will burn you to a crisp.

But it's not 3d, it's a concept part.

Originally Posted by fuss: Hah. Try to be a programmer these days, especially in WebDev. A project that takes a couple of months to finish is already outdated before it's even released - and I am NOT exaggerating. On the other hand, I strongly believe humans are curious by nature and possess an inherent desire and capacity for learning new things, so if you enjoy what you do then you'll always want to continue learning new things about it and it will never feel like work for you or tire you out.

Definitely programmers have a much more demanding state, from what I've seen. That's why they were getting 3-weeks holidays 2 times a year, not once a year.
The positive thing about cg is when you're after 50, i will keep you young by that you get lots of new information. Definitely a great job for retirement, if it ever happens to cg guys (I think it isn't). It's so different to being thrown away by 55, saying good-bye and "starting a new life". People of that age and any other are in no way outsiders any longer, but the same equal competitors, which is fantastic thing of our time.

Originally Posted by rhinton: Well, let me add another factor to this that maybe some of you guys (or gals) can relate to.

Kids.

God's forbid kids in Ukraine. But nature goes on. I just hate this idea here. I'm quite repelled by the idea of having a family in Ukraine, as I went through sheer poverty in my childhood, having both brother and sister. I wouldn't want it to anyone. And yes, women steal so much time, especially if you let them.
 
  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by mister3d: Don't you feel cg 3d is too demanding? You need constantly to learn new programs, and perfect your skills. It takes so much time and efforts. Do you feel it pays off?


For me? Yes. I don't know if I should do this in a public forum, since my name is on the sidebar, and Fable Fox is my 'professional name/handle'.

After too much things happened in life, including my father death on 24th Feb this year, and it put a lot of perspective.

Irony is that I once read a story about Douglas Prasher in Popular Science, but I can't remember was it before or after the death of my dad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Prasher
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-10069835-71.html

I guess it is easy for the layman or 'rah rah self help movement' to say "you didn't work hard enough!' and "anybody can be successful".

But this lead me to read something about Brain Waste.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain#Brain_waste

Although wiki mention brain waste in migration content, some categorized it as 'not having opportunity to be what they actually capable of becoming'.

The question is, when do you actually finally say 'enough is enough' and try to focus on 'life' instead of 'success'. Time is limited.

There is an article on Yahoo recently:

http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/advi...-143425114.html

Looking back and looking forward, due to circumstances and other reasons, I think for me personally, enough is enough. Its fun to dream, but reality is another.

Looking at how experts and old hand being treated (including at Disney), and other articles mentioning the state of the industry, it going to stay as a hobby. I don't know if I'm still sad the the loss of my dad (over here you actually carry your father body into the grave, being one of the son). But after awhile, I realized that the world have changed.

It just changed.
 
  04 April 2013
I somewhat agree that the constant need to keep up can go on only for so long. After a while all the latest tricks and tech updates are cool to know about but not to actually learn and study. The brain can take only so much auxiliary information. I mean, if it has no direct impact on my work the information is only adjacent and I may discard it.

In a perfect world I would love to know EVERYTHING that is going on in the world, not only CGI wise.
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  04 April 2013
I think the technical stuff takes a big back seat to the skill and talent it takes to make work that is marketable. Making what people like or will buy is made more difficult by the amount and quality of available art on the web. We are seeing a definite shift from an employee to a freelance situation where design and sales skills are becoming more important it seems.

I agree with the rest of the posters here who say with a bit of determination most technical cg skills can be learned fairly quickly. Making attractive commercially interesting work is way more difficult.
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  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by Kanga: I think the technical stuff takes a big back seat to the skill and talent it takes to make work that is marketable. Making what people like or will buy is made more difficult by the amount and quality of available art on the web. We are seeing a definite shift from an employee to a freelance situation where design and sales skills are becoming more important it seems.

I agree with the rest of the posters here who say with a bit of determination most technical cg skills can be learned fairly quickly. Making attractive commercially interesting work is way more difficult.

Techniques can take only days, the "technical stuff" can take years to get just the hang of at what would be considered a decent level by those with a clue, but incidentally makes you a lot more marketable than being able to produce prettyness, not to mention the skills a fair bit more portable to completely different environments and ventures.

So lets not diminish the value of technical know how, hei?
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  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO: So lets not diminish the value of technical know how, hei?

Ah so, I didnt explain myself very well I think. If you make a distinction between technicians and generalists then the technical content for a generalist takes a lot less time to master than producing effective content. I am not saying you can be a render tech in a few days. The OP is not a technician and asks the question in that light.

Also let us not confuse expressive, attractive, efficient, marketable content creation with a demeaning term like prettiness I think technicians are also concerned with making products that are more than pretty also.

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Last edited by Kanga : 04 April 2013 at 12:01 PM.
 
  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by mister3d: You need constantly to learn new programs, and perfect your skills.
You've just described the exact reasons I still enjoy doing CG

Granted, there are times where it can feel as though there are a never ending stream of programs/plug-ins to learn and this can be a dishearteningly technical process. Personally, I find that as long as that learning that new tool or technique is driven by an end goal - i.e. making an existing task faster, removing a work-around, gaining more control or allowing you to do something previously impossible. Then it makes the whole process much more rewarding.

Of course, knowing that a new tool or technique is going to be useful only comes from experience and also from accepting your own limitations. I'm sure everyone here has invested time learning a program or process that ultimately frustrated them and it can also be worryingly easy to confuse picking up another new program with progress.

Fortunately, this isn't a phenomenon unique to CG, there are photographers who cannot stop buying lenses and light meters, musicians with houses filled with multiple instruments they don't play, people with shelves of books they never read...etc. We all do it to some extent, the important thing is to ensure it's complimenting your passion, not replacing it.

This reply is far too serious for Monday morning. Here is a dog in a box
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  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by mister3d: Don't you feel cg 3d is too demanding? You need constantly to learn new programs, and perfect your skills. It takes so much time and efforts. Do you feel it pays off?


Hah. Try to be a programmer these days, especially in WebDev. A project that takes a couple of months to finish is already outdated before it's even released - and I am NOT exaggerating. On the other hand, I strongly believe humans are curious by nature and possess an inherent desire and capacity for learning new things, so if you enjoy what you do then you'll always want to continue learning new things about it and it will never feel like work for you or tire you out.

Of course, there are times when for one reason or another you feel exhausted and even in doubt, but everybody has these moments, no matter their profession. Just take a break, and if you still have these doubts afterwards, maybe the reason lies elsewhere - sometimes the working environment or the kind of projects you work on can make you hate the job you used to love and feel like it's too demanding and not worth pursuing - but then it's probably time to change the workplace, not the profession.
 
  04 April 2013
My problem isn't so much with the 3D or any of that, its the subject matter knowledge that is difficult to keep up with. I have to learn so much on how things work/operate. Some days I feel like I am an engineer or architect.
 
  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by fuss: Hah. Try to be a programmer these days, especially in WebDev. A project that takes a couple of months to finish is already outdated before it's even released - and I am NOT exaggerating. On the other hand, I strongly believe humans are curious by nature and possess an inherent desire and capacity for learning new things, so if you enjoy what you do then you'll always want to continue learning new things about it and it will never feel like work for you or tire you out.

Of course, there are times when for one reason or another you feel exhausted and even in doubt, but everybody has these moments, no matter their profession. Just take a break, and if you still have these doubts afterwards, maybe the reason lies elsewhere - sometimes the working environment or the kind of projects you work on can make you hate the job you used to love and feel like it's too demanding and not worth pursuing - but then it's probably time to change the workplace, not the profession.


This. To take another example, my dentist probably graduated more than 30 years ago, and personally speaking I'm quite glad that he's kept up on current trends and is not still using the tools and technologies he learned back then. You can probably say the same thing about any profession.
 
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