future Bat Anatomy

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  03 March 2009
future Bat Anatomy

Hi I am trying to design a bat creature is which evolved in the future but I need opinions on whether this design can work..

Here is my references. I am try to apply the pterosaur 4 limbed gait which they just theorized was the reason for pterosaurs growing so large.


here's a bat's


Here what I have in designed using bones in max. hopefully someone tell if there is any problem with a creature with limbs like this... Bat currently are stuck on the tree and the New Zealand ones well they move on the ground but the same skeleton would not work if the bat stands 2 times the height of a human

the first two metacarpals sorta jointed together and last three fingers are free to move like the above bat skeleton

Last edited by TTYO : 03 March 2009 at 07:31 AM.
 
  04 April 2009
batasaur

hello

first off instead of starting into building your bat, work out how you think its anatomy would be. Bat-mammal, Pterosaur-more avian/bird like. So get some pictures off the web of bird skeletons.
Current bats catch insects/small animals in flight or crawl about catching food or drinking blood. Pterosaur is thought to have floated on the water fishing (think pelican) or fished by using its long neck from the shore.
Bat has skin stretched between legs and tail, not so on Pterosaur making it difficult to run well on back legs. how would that have to change?
I believe pterosaurs had what would be a single elongated pinky bonefrom which the wing skin stretched back to the body, which it could fold back and still leave a multi-digit limb for getting about on.
A bat basically has 4 fingers that spread out the wing, and a hook as a thumb to hang on to this with. So a battrying to walk on its wing hook would be like you trying to walk about on your thumb tips, how might your bat's wings need to re-develope to allow for better walking about?
So you might think about attempting to figure out how you bat of the future might need to change from the bat of today, then work out how it's anatomy/ bones would have to be to handle its new shape and functions.

Hope that helps some

Mr. D

and hope my recall of pterosaurs is correct.
 
  04 April 2009
Err actually Mr. D I have done loads of research on Pterosaurs. According to new research they say Pterosaur fly like Birds but they take off like bats. They use the front legs and back legs to power the take off.

Now I managed to find a video of a vampire bat which breaks a lot of rules in bat locomotion and mimics pterosaur take off. Take a look here. The vampire bats are the only bats that can run

http://www.batcon.org/index.php/edu...eo-footage.html
 
  04 April 2009
your bat

Hello

Glad to see you're researching, but still would like to see a workup of what you believe will be the body design of this future bat. Or do you see that there would be no body modification to the animal? Have you any drawings - mockups of your creature to post, or are you simply upsizing a current type of bat such as you mention a vampire bat.

Mr. D
 
  04 April 2009
I am modifying on the anatomy design starting with the bones then the other details.

As for mock up I have create a rig for the creature as a test rig. If anyone doesn't mind I will post the link for download. Would that be ok?




Okay basically they would live in a world that is devoid of bird or have no contact with birds like on a distant island. Under isolation, most animals would evolve in a unique way.

I discovered that most animals only use 2 wings to fly, from a efficiency stand point that's a bit of waste as the legs are not used in flight and also might cause drag as well your legs still have weight.

But animals who incorperate their legs into their flight pattern evolved into some of the largest flying animals on the planet. Pterosaurs have their legs incorperated into the wing membrane just like bats do. So I see a potential that once the bird are extinct, the bats can take over and or even outshine birds!

Now I am thinking if we turn the hind legs into wings or part of the flight as well without sacrificing its strength to intiate a jump or walk. I think 4 fours can produce a 2x stronger force to lift off

Another issue I am trying to solve is to prevent my bats from getting bad accidents when they are landing as they grow larger. I have smaller species in mind but now I am more worried for the larger species.

I have got one that has a wingspan of 13 metres, rivalling that of the largest Pterosaurs.

To see what accidents I mean, look at this video. And have a good laugh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zGEbVxr0mk

I was think if my bats need 4 limbs to take off and also land, they won't be falling and tumbling like an albatross but have a more graceful landing.
 
  04 April 2009
Hello Again

Hello

Seems you have most of this in hand, but a few things to consider to me would be.
1) Very little has been founded in the way of flying creatures with more than 2 wings outside of insects ( though some small early birds/dinosaurs might have had extra skin folds that could had acted as wings, more likely believed to be flight surfaces and not true wings. And some insects got to be around 3 feet long). Plus there have been no truely large flying mammals found ( maybe out there yet to be discovered), one reason maybe that mammals bare young within their bodies as opposed to insects and birds which lay eggs. But heck it's your bat so if you want it to have four wings why not.

2) the clumsy bird from the video has poor landings I think more from type of surface being landed on, wet grass and loose uneven sand, plus the fact that it's landing area is rather crowded and it must make last minute corrections not to fly into other animals. Though it might give you the idea that while this bird is attempting to glide into an area perhaps your's could do more of a backbeat on landing (such as eagles or hawks landing on a limb).

3) redesign of your bat's limbs to provide greater power during liftoff, though not just big muscles as all that means is added weight. Still I would look at that bat wing and see if I could design a better system for a ground dwelling mammal.

So not much else I can add except to go ahead and simply take your bat mockup and start walking it about, look for problems caused by it's body shape; and then redesign and test again till it looks right to you.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Good Luck

Mr. D
 
  04 April 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbyS...feature=related

Maybe my bats leap frog into flight? like this frog clip I found... This is a gliding tree frog from South East Asia.

The frog's forelimbs compared with my bats contribute very little force compared with the hindlimbs. In my bats, I think they use all four limbs in the jump or takeoff.

I think this is especially important for the larger species of bats but I think the smaller species can do just fine with just propulsion from the forelimbs.

As for the hind wings, I think the hind wings are for species that are the size of eagles or albatrosses and huge species like the 13 m wingspan. The bigger the animal, the longer the hindwings and legs I think. But proportionally, the big ones have hind wings that are as long and wide as the front wings.
 
  04 April 2009
This is another design. This one allows the animal to walk properly and fly...


 
  05 May 2009
New Wing designs..

Gliding
The First one is the "ancestor " based on real Flying squirrels


Next stage of evolution


New Flight

The Tail has a horizontal fin to steer


Top view
 
  05 May 2009
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