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Old 12-18-2013, 11:30 AM   #31
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I apologize for any personal attacks towards Chris or any other guy, but I won't move away from my general points. I wanted to make clear what I do not like about the whole discussion group giving clear examples and pointing out why I'm worried about the future development.

I know Duncan is not just a demo artist, but he is while he is doing a demo. Again, if Chris cannot answer specific questions, why do they choose him to do so.

Eric, you are asking do they have the time to do demos. Well, this is something you often bring up when someone is critizising the development. I know you always want to defend the Max team, but repeating this excuse is not going to help much. Obviously, the Maya team has time to do it. And we are talking about an expert challenge that happens maybe every half a year. So I don't really get your point.

Anyway, I'm out of this discussion now, as I'm getting a bit tired of it, and I don't really care about what they are doing in the future. They managed to scare me off after 10 years of using Max, including our animation department, we are all moving to Maya now. But I guess that is what they want anyway (as you can see with recent developments like People Power etc). When they included CAT a few years back, I was thinking it's all going to be better soon. But the opposite was true. They managed to break CAT for about 3 releases and just brought it back to normal state recently, without a single improvement. And to be honest, when I see such an interview, I understand why.
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:10 PM   #32
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I see about the same. More and more game studios moving away from Max, at least for animation.
Basically just what Autodesk wanted and has been pushing for, no matter what they might say now.
 
Old 12-18-2013, 04:17 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gräck
Eric, you are asking do they have the time to do demos. Well, this is something you often bring up when someone is critizising the development. I know you always want to defend the Max team, but repeating this excuse is not going to help much. Obviously, the Maya team has time to do it. And we are talking about an expert challenge that happens maybe every half a year. So I don't really get your point.
The point is ask Duncan to demo something he didn't produce, ie anything outside dynamics and paint effects. Where as someone like Chris is being asked to cover every aspect of the application. As Chris pointed out one of the best and worst things about 3ds max is there are multiple ways to do any one task inside the application. This makes stuff like demos difficult, because you can't present everything and the proper route is typically user/workflow dependent.

And don't say I want to defend the 3ds max team as that is anything but the truth. It just proves you know very little about what you talk about. I play both sides and I present a counter argument to the discussion as discussions are typically overly one-sided. In most cases with someone like you it is always anti-3ds max, and your responses here prove that as you fight with anyone who doesn't align with you. I spend a lot of time digging into the facts to try and get the real answers rather than blanket assumptions. I personally don't care whether you are for or against 3ds max or the 3ds max team. However, don't try and turn you assumptions into fact.

Thank for choosing to move to Maya, feel free to take your opinions to their forums.
-Eric
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:06 PM   #34
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Yes, I will probably disappear from this forum more and more, and you, please continue to live in your world of whitewashing.
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:12 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gräck
They managed to scare me off after 10 years of using Max, including our animation department, we are all moving to Maya now.


Aw man... that's sad to hear. It's understandable given AD's blatant and extremely frustrating neglect of Max as an animation package but sad to hear all the same. I keep trying to move to Maya but all of it's key management tools (in my opinion) are so cumbersome and poorly implemented compared to Max's. The majority of animation is moving and manipulating keys so for me this is a gigantic barrier to entry since it's hard to force yourself to work at a handicap. You have a great looking demo reel too so to me it's a sad loss.
 
Old 12-19-2013, 07:33 AM   #36
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Gregor, in opposition to Eric, i'd be definitely not happy loosing your input to Max, especially on the beta. I certainly wan't argue about anything related to your pipeline switch to Maya, but i certanly would miss your "pushing" input in the related discussions over there on the forum.

I'm not sure about anything animation related in Max's future either, but we have Eddie Perlberg as senior PM now, who might have some open ears for things like skin, CAT and those other neglected areas, so i think your input would be definitely missed...

On the other side i completely understand how it is to let one thing go and start with something new: one does'nt want to be slowed down by old ties in such situations...
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Old 12-19-2013, 05:38 PM   #37
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Honestly, Gregor's input in some areas are welcomed, but the with me or against me attitude and the unfounded opinionated accusations really has no place. I hope your experience with Maya, or whatever package you end up with is better than what you had with 3ds max. I know a lot of Maya users personally (probably a 5:1 or 10:1 ratio of Maya:3ds max users) and a large majority have been using it since the early Maya years. The complaints I see from them just makes me realize that no package or development team is perfect.

Improving the software is about making it better for all the users, not one user or user segment. I am all for getting improvements on animation, and yes they are needed. However, if the focus is specific to characters then you are cutting everyone else doing animation and rigging that doesn't directly involve characters. We need faster controllers, better weighting tools, better referencing, better wiring, and overall better way to deal with controllers and hierarchy. These fixes need to focus on core animation features that can be used for characters, mechanical, and abstract animation. The focus should not be to one specific segment, or you will always run into a collision between segments.

-Eric
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:46 PM   #38
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Why not both?
If the suits at Autodesk want to prove that this rediscovered spirit of celebration is more than just lip service, maybe they should provide the means to take care of at least the most lacking areas.
And if they can't afford to properly take care of something like CAT, why buy it in the first place? We see a lot of great plugins and creative developers being sucked into 3ds max and then not given the time and resources necessary to continue to work their magic.
 
Old 12-19-2013, 07:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PiXeL_MoNKeY
Improving the software is about making it better for all the users, not one user or user segment. I am all for getting improvements on animation, and yes they are needed. However, if the focus is specific to characters then you are cutting everyone else doing animation and rigging that doesn't directly involve characters. We need faster controllers, better weighting tools, better referencing, better wiring, and overall better way to deal with controllers and hierarchy. These fixes need to focus on core animation features that can be used for characters, mechanical, and abstract animation. The focus should not be to one specific segment, or you will always run into a collision between segments.

-Eric


You are correct that's not only about character animation, but that area happens to include all of the things you mention. Targeting the flaws in the areas you mention means targeting character animation. The problem is that those efforts are not happening: their strategy seems to target trackview in one cycle and then asume that this will be enough for the next couple of cycles. So - hey, let us focus now on People Power and tweak some trouser textures, this is far less complicated and cheaper...
But i initially did'nt want to post anyway , because the bitterness in this thread is'nt really helping anyone ...
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:28 PM   #40
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Most lacking according to whom? People using FBX or other "M&E" interop formats should be happy, or those doing character work in 3ds max. If you are someone like me who is dealing with engineering data you know how much constraints and animation can be imported? NONE. So I would say engineering constraint and animation support is much higher than Character as there are tools and workflows for character rigging and animation IO, but there is ZERO on the engineering side. On top of that you know how the engineering data imports? Everything oriented and pivot at origin so literally everything has to be redone.

So again I say focus on core issues to help everyone, otherwise I say my needs are important as there are zero ways to import the data in which you don't have to redo it all. This is the real problem with these discussions and that is everyone feels their needs are the most important. Personally, I say focus on that which will help the most users (core fundamental issues), then focus on the areas where there is no alternative, and finally address those areas that need attention which have alternatives.

-Eric
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:12 PM   #41
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I'm probably being ignorant now but I see it slightly differently.
I have purchased Max for the features it actually has and expect them to be maintained and improved. Sure, I like new things, too, but if they add a new feature, they have to take care of it from now on. And if they don't and the "new feature" used to be a thriving plugin beforehand, they have actually taken something away from the users in the long run.
I understand your point but your example, while it might indeed help a lot of people, sounds like the perfect job for a third party developer. (Just like FBX used to be a plugin.)
Now again, I understand your point about fixes and improvements which help as many people as possible, but I don't think a statement like "if they improve feature x, every one who doesn't need it will be left empty handed" should strike that close to home like it does with 3ds max.

Last edited by Noren : 12-19-2013 at 09:20 PM.
 
Old 12-19-2013, 09:29 PM   #42
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Noren, I would agree but there is no 3rd party developer doing it. Which suggests that it may not be a simple issue to address. However, there are plenty of 3rd party options for character rigging, skinning, animation, etc. The current animation tools in 3ds max require very convoluted setups for things like reliable hinge and piston/sliding motions. IK and LookAt fall apart way too easily. So yes some tools can benefit multiple areas, but "fixing CAT" or "skinning" isn't going to make it easier for me to properly rig mechanical animations, constraints, and rigs. Focusing on the controllers that are used by both has a larger benefit.

That being said I do need characters for my visualizations, but they are secondary to the engineering data.

-Eric
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:51 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noren
Why not both?
If the suits at Autodesk want to prove that this rediscovered spirit of celebration is more than just lip service, maybe they should provide the means to take care of at least the most lacking areas.
And if they can't afford to properly take care of something like CAT, why buy it in the first place? We see a lot of great plugins and creative developers being sucked into 3ds max and then not given the time and resources necessary to continue to work their magic.


Well.. Autodesk never bought CAT. Softimage bought it. Then it came with Softimage when Autodesk bought Softimage.

Max team actually spend a lot of resource into CAT. The problem was that the they "rewrite" CAT(This is why I don't believe in re-writing of max). I think this is one of reason why other animation area could not have more attention.

Last edited by gandhics : 12-19-2013 at 11:31 PM.
 
Old 12-19-2013, 09:51 PM   #44
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