# Max Game character rig: arm bone axes

 02 February 2013 Mambo4 not a jedi yet   portfolio Logan Bender Game Technical Artist Greater Seattle, USA Max Game character rig: arm bone axes Workings on a 3ds max game rig. I have gone through the task of rotating bone pivots in order to achieve the state described here Quote: "...There are two general points to remember here, 1) You should be able to select every joint in a chain and have them bend in the same direction when you rotate in a single axis. 2) Behaviours should correspond across different limbs in the same rig, so for example rotation in X should rotate the arms forwards, legs forwards and spine forwards - consistency of rotation behaviour is the aim." but now that my arms behave this way, their joints seem a bit odd -namely that X (down the bone) and Z (forward bend) is flipped on the left arm. My question is: is this normal? i ask because I'm about to implement an attachment system. It will need to communicate XYZ offsets, and I don't know if the flipped left arm axes will be trouble... I realize that it's a Maya tutorial, but I assume this consistent axis set up is a general principle... share quote
 02 February 2013 sidvici Expert This shouldnt happen if you use the BoneTool mirror function(Animation menu). share quote
 02 February 2013 uiron neglostyti   portfolio Viktoras Makauskas Vilnius, Lithuania Axis alignment looks good. This kind of alignment is a "mirror rotate behaviour", where each axis is looking into opposite direction than it's mirror counterpart (X is also "opposite" in your picture, as one side looks into mirror plane, and the other side - away from it). In more simple words - if you grab both joints and start manipulating rotation values, you'll get mirrored behaviour. This also allows copying rotation keys from left to right side, and all other good stuff. At least that's the logic in Maya, I remember Max joints being somewhat different (no local rotation axis? don't know, been a long long time I don't know what you have planned for "It will need to communicate XYZ offsets", but there's nothing that cannot be solved with intermediate objects, matrix operations and what not. In any case, this should not influence joint orientation, which, I feel, is best left as "mirror rotate behaviour" mirror style. __________________ Victor ngskintools.com - skinning plugin for Autodesk Maya share quote
 02 February 2013 Mambo4 not a jedi yet   portfolio Logan Bender Game Technical Artist Greater Seattle, USA Originally Posted by sidvici: This shouldnt happen if you use the BoneTool mirror function(Animation menu). Bone Mirror fails to produce axis layouts that yield the desired mirrored rotation behavior. threads regarding the general lack of joint orientation tools in Max tend to go dead fast. So I have to wonder if this idea matters in max (and if not, why not?) share quote
 02 February 2013 sidvici Expert Try this. In the front view create a simple bone chain. use the mirror tool and check the x mirror axis and choose z as bone axis to flip. vóila, a mirrored bone behavior. Last edited by sidvici : 02 February 2013 at 01:38 PM. share quote
 02 February 2013 Mambo4 not a jedi yet   portfolio Logan Bender Game Technical Artist Greater Seattle, USA Z rotation is opposite, following your example. share quote
 02 February 2013 uiron neglostyti   portfolio Viktoras Makauskas Vilnius, Lithuania You can use negative scale to flip an axis. Not saying it's a good thing, but it's the only way to get perfect mirror of all three axes on the other side. Well, they will look mirrored, but if you try to rotate with "local" and "use pivot center" settings, you can observe how they rotate into opposite directions __________________ Victor ngskintools.com - skinning plugin for Autodesk Maya share quote
 02 February 2013 Mambo4 not a jedi yet   portfolio Logan Bender Game Technical Artist Greater Seattle, USA I ended up manually rotating the pivots 180 in Y to achieve the full effect. As to weather or not it is important to have perfectly mirrored rotations, I discovered that failing to do this became a disater when I set upy ik-fk switching. I wish max had better joint orienting tools. share quote
 02 February 2013 sidvici Expert I see what you mean. You just get one axis to flip. But is that really a problem? You could easily flip y and z on the mirrored control object to get the desired behaviour on all 3 axis. Just out of curiosity, how you managed to get the x axis of the selected bone in the picture look upwards? share quote
 02 February 2013 Mambo4 not a jedi yet   portfolio Logan Bender Game Technical Artist Greater Seattle, USA the flipped x axis was a result of following this tutorial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M06ZB...Bg2vUd&index=5 watch from 6:18. share quote
 02 February 2013 PEN R&D/Technical Director   portfolio Paul Neale PEN Productions Canada Max does not need joint orient tools as they stay aligned correctly for you. When you move a child joint in maya the parent looses orientation to the child, not the case in Max. If you want the bad behavior that maya has all you need to do is turn off the bone property in max. As for the mirroring what you are seeing is a transform that has been mirrored from a right hand to right hand matrix. If it were truely mirrored from right to left hand the mirrored side would be inside out and game exports would be messed up. This is no different in maya or any other 3D engine. Originally Posted by Mambo4: Bone Mirror fails to produce axis layouts that yield the desired mirrored rotation behavior. threads regarding the general lack of joint orientation tools in Max tend to go dead fast. So I have to wonder if this idea matters in max (and if not, why not?) __________________ Paul Neale http://paulneale.com share quote
 02 February 2013 Mambo4 not a jedi yet   portfolio Logan Bender Game Technical Artist Greater Seattle, USA Paul, how do you view the importance of the mirrored rotation idea epxressed in my first post? Where xyz rotations are perfectly mirrored? Their blogs ive been following stress the idea, as well as the video tutorial linked to, but recreating it in max seems dubious From what ive read. I fear I may be creating unneeded problems. share quote
 02 February 2013 Mambo4 not a jedi yet   portfolio Logan Bender Game Technical Artist Greater Seattle, USA Also the problems encountered during ik/fk setup were not a result of the bones' reversed orientations alone, but a discrepancy in pivot orientation between bones and Control shapes. note to self: align everything before any constraining or scripting! share quote
 03 March 2013 Mambo4 not a jedi yet   portfolio Logan Bender Game Technical Artist Greater Seattle, USA in the long run, I was forced to scrap this approach to bone orienting for our game. fighting Max's expected behavior by flipping bone pivots was an invitation to disaster once further rigging demands came along.  actually a BIG problem with this comes when you have to calculate attachment offsets for weapons and items. With the bones oriented how Max forces you to do it, the left and right hand offset data simply doesn't match. Last edited by Mambo4 : 03 March 2013 at 11:16 PM. share quote
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