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Old 01-29-2003, 08:41 AM   #16
E.T
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wow.

thats actually on of the top5 most useful things ive seen here.
(beats self over the head) why didnt i think of that?
so easy.
so right.
 
Old 01-29-2003, 08:46 AM   #17
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I'm so glad that's actually usefull to you. I'll show some more about that method later on if you're interested. It's pretty cool.

E.T.

In regards to your first post, I could not agree with you more. I say use whatever works best, anyway you can.

I do, however think that there is a theoretical perfect sub-d standard, we just need to figure out what it is.

In fact, until we decide what constitues a sub-d model, we probably can't do that.

My mental block with the whole thing, is that I consider and method of creating polys and making them into a model with the intent of smoothing it later is Sub-d.

I've seen the term used for box modeling, ingame models that have not been smoothed, as well as many other things.

Perhaps Sub-d is becoming a buzz word. What does it mean to you?

-3DZ

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Last edited by Dave Black : 01-29-2003 at 08:55 AM.
 
Old 01-29-2003, 08:57 AM   #18
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Please do.

errm. how do you get the primitive?
Id like to do exactly like you, and not what i think youre doing.
(blushing)

Last edited by E.T : 01-29-2003 at 09:06 AM.
 
Old 01-29-2003, 09:14 AM   #19
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It's really not too bad...No voodoo or magic.

Take a cylinder, give it 8 sides, and no height segments. Give it 2,3, or 4 cap segments.

Now convert it to an editable mesh.

Now convert it to an editable poly.

Now select all the polys that make up everything but the top face of the cylinder. And delete 'em!

Now erase the triangles in the middle.

It also can be made with a tube, but I prefer the cylinder.

Hope that helps. Sorry I did'nt mention that before. D'oh!

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Last edited by Dave Black : 01-30-2003 at 07:27 AM.
 
Old 01-29-2003, 09:15 AM   #20
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Great tip about mouth can you make 3 smal video about mouth, nose and eye.
 
Old 01-29-2003, 09:17 AM   #21
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I'm so glad that you liked that.

I really could make a few small timelapse vids on making some facial features.

I'll get on that.

-3DZ

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Old 01-29-2003, 09:24 AM   #22
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This is a really usefull thread! Please keep it comming...
 
Old 01-29-2003, 10:28 AM   #23
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Great tip! More, more!

I was a little pissed off about the deletion thingy, but really, with a 6 page thread you can't easily draw anyone else in

To me, with tools like smoothing groups and the like, subdivision can be used for much more than organic shapes. It's just a matter of making it behave.

I still want to know how fausto could do this...sorry, i'm being repetitive I mean sure, Ngons can work well in some areas, like flat surfaces, but on a curved surface....
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Old 01-29-2003, 10:40 AM   #24
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Regarding the primitives it sounds you it would be possible to capture that into a macro, and thus make your own toolbar with buttons to instantly create these useful objects.

Anyway, as E.T. seems to ponder on as well, what is SubD in a MAX context? SubD is clearly something very different from your usual polys in Maya for instance, "SubD" has its entirely own set of primitives, it's own set of commands only valid to SubD objects, for some reason UV-mapping is severly limited (no spherical, cylindrical, etc., only "planar" and "Automatic"). And if you want your straight ordinary polys you go through a conversion-process that, essentially, ****s things up enough to make you not want to sit and do that every five minutes.

But then in MAX.. in MAX SubD seems to just be an "Editable Poly" object.. Wanna convert back to ordinary polygons?, well that's just two clicks away, and bam, Editable Mesh..
And wether you use the NURMs options available from within Poly, or with a MeshSmooth, you get the same result.. so is using the MeshSmooth modifier SubD? Or maybe SubD has nothing to do with the actual smoothing of the object, but rather the technique used: loops, rings, quads, etc?


And what about this thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet: resolution-independancy?

I've been told that a proper SubD implementation is, or can be?, resolution-inderpendant. If you use SubD objects with Renderman (the Pixar render), you get a super-smooth no-edges-visible thing going, irregardless of how much you zoom. Just as you would with NURBS. You even get proper displacement and hair I was told, which is something ordinary smoothed polys can't do. This is, apparently, partly why NURBS has been used to much on feature-films. It can be argued that NURBS are trickier to use, but you get completly perfectly placed, lit, and oriented displacement and hair it seems.
Let me stress that these Renderman tidbits are only what I've been told.

Okay then, I hope I haven't rambled on for too long, I'm just confused as to what this "SubD" is. I'm glad to see that it seems I'm not completly alone on that. Good idea on making this thread 3DZealot, it nicely balances out the.. ah.. deletion-incident I hope we can get to shed some light on these matters.

So yeah, my question is, I suppose, if the MAX way of SubDing is MeshSmooth? And if so, what about the resolution? You can easily zoom in on a meshsmoothed model and see it's polys... The immidiate solution is of course to up the render-iterations, but that's an endless game.. too brute-force for my taste in the long run.

Or maybe I got it wrong, and Renderman and Maya and NURBS and all that, still requires tessellation through a global iteration-value? Ie. not some fancy dynamic tessellation or whatever that always keeps a curve smooth.


[edit]actually having tried the macro-recorder I now realise it won't work with this, there is more to it than just recording and making a script out of it [/edit]

Last edited by gaggle : 01-29-2003 at 11:10 AM.
 
Old 01-29-2003, 11:11 AM   #25
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I found a great article on Subdivision theory at Gamasutra.

You'll need to sign up to read it, but it's free.

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20000411/sharp_01.htm

Written By Brian Sharp, April 10th, 2000.


Quote:
First, what is a subdivision surface? The obvious answer is that itís a surface generated through subdivision. To elaborate, every subdivision surface starts with an original polygonal surface, called a control net. Then the surface is subdivided into additional polygons and all the vertices are moved according to some set of rules. The rules for moving the vertices are different from scheme to scheme, and it is these rules that determine the properties of the surface. The rules of most schemes (including all the ones discussed here) involve keeping the old vertices around, optionally moving them, and introducing new vertices. There are schemes that remove the old vertices at each step, but theyíre in the definite minority.

The one thing the control net and the eventual surface (called the limit surface) have in common is that they are topologically the same. Topology is a way of describing the structure of a surface that isnít changed by an elastic deformation, that is, a stretching or twisting. A good example and common joke is that to a topologist, a coffee cup and a donut are identical. The donut hole corresponds to the hole in the handle of the coffee mug. On the other hand, a sphere and coffee mug are not topologically equivalent, since no amount of stretching and twisting can punch a hole in that sphere.


This is near the start of the article. I don't know if i should be putting it here...oh well It goes on to talk about different Subd schemes and how they work.
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Old 01-29-2003, 11:29 AM   #26
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The "what is SubD?" question is a dead-end, it's an argument that will go around and around for ever and has been covered countless times on this forum alone.

To sum up: The argument depends on whether you believe that

a) "SubDs" has a rigid, set-in-stone definition, and only means whatever the person who first coined it meant when he coined it, ie it is a description of one specific subdivision algorithm that allows a perfectly smooth surface to be generated at rendertime.

or

b) "SubDs" is just a fashionable buzzword and means whatever the most people who use the term mean by it, ie a catch-all non-app-specific modelling technique that involves subdividing a low-detail control cage to achieve a high-detail model.

In either event it is next-to-meaningless from the point of view of modelling workflow and technique, especially in an app-specific forum when that app has "SubDs" by only one of the above definitions anyway.

So can we please keep this to a discussion on modelling technique (I believe that is the spirit in which it was originally started) and leave the pedantry out of it? I am willing and eager to contribute, but not if the thread is in danger of degenerating into yet another semantics merry-go-round, arguing over aspects of terminoligy that have no relevance to Max anyway.
 
Old 01-29-2003, 12:11 PM   #27
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mrfandiwagon, thanks, that was most enlightening. That seems to verify that SubD can generate perfectly smooth resolution-inderpendant surfaces. Very neat.

But that's not in MAX? We clearly have polygon-smoothing, via the Catmull-Clark algorithm I belive. But not the SubD-kind Pixar started. Not the SubD kind that other programs has?

Unlike Iain it seems, I'm interested in learning about the theory behind SubDs as well as the hands-on-modeling techniques. I think the basics regarding the "What is SubD?" question is answered nicely in the Gamasutra article.. all without having to go through the firely hell of several word-splitting semantics-arguments that Iain apparently has seen. Unburnt as I am from those experiences I'm optimistic that we can keep it civil and (more or less) on-topic without having to ban any talks of theory or how other programs has handled their SubD implementation

Ah, we'll see as the thread moves along.

Where most of my theoretical-related questions have been answered by the article, I guess I'm mostly just left a little puzzled.. Maya has evidently gone through a great deal of trouble implementing SubD, whereas when we got the Editable Poly in.. MAX4 was it?, it was just this thing that people didn't neccessairly see the use in at first, it all seemed to look pretty much the same as the Editable Mesh.

I can't find them right now, but somewhere on the net I see from time to time these really nice illustrations that shows how to approch a corner without loosing an edge-loop. And if you have a triangle, you can "do this and this" and voila, it's all quad again. And how to add details without adding tri's and such. If someone has something like that, please do post, I think they could be valuable for people (like me ) getting their feet wet with this whole quad thing.

Last edited by gaggle : 01-29-2003 at 01:45 PM.
 
Old 01-29-2003, 01:06 PM   #28
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Ahhhh, so the question about Ngons and tris is answered... kinda. Guess I'll have to mess with them to find out what effect they have.

It's good to hear Ngons in static objects are okay-- in situations like that gun, it would be hellish to have to string a new loop all through the object every time I added a corner to a new detail in one tiny spot. That's one of the reasons I've put off working on my Trigun revolver model so long, I was dreading that.

As for SubD, I don't see what the big debate is. SubD is making a model that gets subdivided at some point, and that isn't NURBS, right? Okay. Moving right along...


  • How do we cut into our SubD models without losing the flow of the curved surface these details are cut into? Obviously it requires making the mesh a bit heavier, but how much? Do we have to string changes along all around the model, or are there easy ways to limit these additions and changes?

    How do we keep the added detail consistent, if we have to change something? I would be inclined to say reference objects... often I use primitives and the like that I can snap vertexes to, to keep things in line. Would it be good to keep a pre-cut copy of the object, that we can add iterations to so that we have vertexes to snap our added detail vertexes to?
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Old 01-29-2003, 02:30 PM   #29
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Gaggle:
It's not that I don't find it interesting, far from it, but I just think it's a slightly different discussion, one that focuses on technology rather than technique (and, as I said, depends heavily on your own interpretation of the term "SubD"). If you take the hard-line intepretation of the term then Max has no SubDs whatsoever, as in the strictest sense SubDs are a property of the renderer. Any step down from that interpretation and the term becomes vague. Is any technique of subdividing a mesh to be considered SubDs, or only those which allow heirarchical editing? Is meshsmooth SubDs at all? What about HSDS (Hierarchical SubDivision Surface)?
You can go on and on, and at the end of tha day none of it is really relevant to any question of workflow or technique, because depsite the differences under the hood and in the renderer the process of actually modelling objects is very similar.

So just to be clear, for the purposes of this thread when I refer to SubDs I am refering to Max's modelling tools (Meshsmooth or HSDS), whether or not they are SubDs by anyone else's definition.

Here's my take on the questions posed so far:

Max's SubDs are not a "perfect" modelling technique. They are not accurate to very tiny tolerances, and some shapes and forms are just intrinsically difficult to model using the poly+smooth technique.

BUT

That really isn't a problem, because they don't have to be "perfect", they only have to be "good enough", which they are If super-accuracy is an issue you'd model in a CAD app in Nurbs, not SubDs in Max, and so long as you keep that in mind everything becomes much more simple. It doesn't matter if there is a flaw in a surface, so long as it is either too small or too mild to notice in the finished render.

Take Fausto's gun as an example. The question was posed in this thread's predesessor as to how he managed to avoid pinching in the places where he had a round hole detail on a curved surface. The fact is he didn't avoid pinching, but it is extremely mild and very small, and as a result it's not visible in the renders. It is extremely mild because the size of each hole is tiny in relation to the radius of the cylinder, the mesh has only a slight curve if you look at it locally. By "reinforcing" each detail with extra edges to support the subdivided mesh he further minimised any flaws, a technique that was illustrated really well in the old thread by both John and Marcel, if I remember.

The other question directly related to Fausto's model was that of hanging verts. Again, the answer isn't that the flaws aren't there, the answer is that they are too small to see and therefore irrelavant. Again, most of them occur on locally flat areas of mesh (between two edges that are relatively close together in relation to the overall radius of the curve), so they are easy to control. The fact that the gun mesh won't need to deform in any way makes it possible to pretty much ignore them.

I have a post-it note on my monitor. It says "It doesn't have to be right, it just has to look right"

My take on Ngons:
Obviously Quads are ideal, but 5-sided polys aren't nearly as problematic as most people think. Max's smoothing algorithm handles them very well, even on deforming meshes, and I'd take a 5-sided poly over a tri or a 6+-sided pole any day. I try to keep them away from super-critical areas of a face, such as the area around the mouth or eyes, but most of the time I just leave 'em. They aren't too difficult to kill if need be anyway.

I actually worry a lot more about poles than quads during the actual modelling process, because a pole automatically terminates an edgeloop which runs off it, and this narrows down my selection options (being a naturally lazy modeller I'd rather hit "L"(sepect edge loop), "+"(increase selection), "V"(convert selection to vertex) in quick succession than manually select 20 or so verts around an eye ). By trying to avoid poles as much as possible I have to accept Ngons to a certain extent, but I find I end up with much better flow in my mesh once I am finished (and the most important areas, mouth/ eyes etc, are pretty much all quad and no poles).

I don't approach character modelling any differently from, say, vehicle modelling. They both use the same meshsmooth afterall. There is certainly a difference in priorities though. In character modelling, at a purely technical level, you are much more concerned with deformations and rarely have to worry about hard edges and suchlike. With vehicle modelling on the other hand, surface quality is everything.

These are just my personal opinions of course, and most of them come from learning by my own mistakes or trial and error experimentation.

More to follow later...

(read these if you haven't already)

http://www.izware.com/news/indexa446.html

http://maxrovat.sns.hu/subdiv/

Last edited by Iain McFadzen : 01-29-2003 at 02:33 PM.
 
Old 01-29-2003, 02:38 PM   #30
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BTW great mouth example Zealot.
 
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