Future of forward/inverse kinematics?

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Old 04 April 2003   #46
wow, another incredible thread with all the big hitters attending. Its a party I can't pass up!!

Keith, I would love it if you would be kind enough to share what you can on that system you and Comet worked on at BIP.

Keep up the great work fellas, its inspiring to see the kind of industry pushing discussion that's happening here.
DISCLAIMER: This message represents my own opinion and does not reflect in any way the opinion of my employer .
Old 04 April 2003   #47

just finished watching the sega demo and I think its incredebly GREAT!

I was "raised" (graduated 2 years ago...) as a traditional animator and learned that the best way to animate stuff is by a key frame and pose by pose basiss.

I<m a converted 3D animator and I TRULY enjoy animating in 3D, in fact sometimes even more. But the thing that I miss the most is that simple control over the work!!!

Like, usualy when we drew something on paper and wanted to keep lets say the elbow in place (pined) , we would just have to trace over it!!! Simple!

tell me if i<m wrong, but i think thats what sega is looking to do! be able to pin stuff easily!

I work at a university in a small research company and am the character Rigger and animator there. I was basicaly hired to find an automated rigging system for the students with the maya software that would be easy to animate with!

Kaydara has a system that looks like what sega did, but to me its still not adequate wet! it has the pinning and fk/ik switch on each joint but with the interface, you just get confused with whats ik and whats fk!!! Too many bones! and its very long to animated with!!! Maybe its ,cause i<m not used to it Or I just suck!!! Who knows!

as for the animation curve and all that technical stuff most of my students don<t even want to touch that stuff its too hard to correct and somtimes imposibble like those rotatation values!

I think that an animator should be an animator and not worry about the techi stuff!!!

M. schleifer (when your this good they call you mister) braught a good point! that i hope is solved in the near future so we can all go back to simple character animation!!!

later jack
Old 04 April 2003   #48
That would be a very nice way of working. I'm not a good Animator I just get by. But I have experimented in many ways of rigging. Mostly with LW, Max, and Maya. Each one making me wanting more features in just one of them. (dreaming) I have tried very hard to create rigs as close to puppeteering as possible almost no floaters and elbow and knees that give a lot of control but still being an IK system. In Lw 5.6 I made a full human IK body with all the limits and restrictions of normal human that allow me to make a human that I could pull the hand pull the whole body. Worked very nicely for a person who wasn't a very good animator. (me) By putting the body into a natural state without posing every part. It also adds a lot of secondary motion. It was very slow back then but so was a lot of things. This was a lot like the Sega animation program (that was really amazing).

When I tried Maya I could not reproduce this. This was back in ver. 1 and 2. I even tried using Maya multichain IK that was hidden from the user. There was good reason it was hidden. 8) The way IK was used and organized changed in most apps from that point. It became a lot more focused in order to make it faster.

I never got to try Mirai's IK But was always impressed with what I saw but the software never moved forward so it was hard to consider using it in production.

My point to all of this is the best way for Maya to have an animation system like this would be to have a complete IK structure not individual IK parts driving a FK system. Instead of some kind of blending. The IK system would take over the FK keys while posing but the model really moves based on the bone keys. My current LW rig uses nulls (locators) that fallow the bone that way I can pose the elbow they way I want but after I move time the nulls acuity snaps to the position of the elbow bone resetting the IK exactly where the elbow was placed. The elbow controller also can also effect the position of the elbow not just rotating around a poll vector. This can give the ability to controller timing of the arm much like a FK system. Itís not perfect but I like it. If you have LW you can try it out your self here

Sorry I talked about LW so much but I though it applied to the discussions
Old 04 April 2003   #49
sorry guys for taking so long. :/ but when i encode it, it always hangs at the end for some reason. i got a large one ( 300 megs that im sending to jason. so thats done. just gotta make a web version that works :/ sorry for leaving you hanging.:( )

[update] works!. uploading now. hope 35 megs aint too much a download ill try to get some mirrors up for it. ( if anyone wants to volounteer that'd be great too!. i dont want to kill cgtalks bandwidth with this ( we get enough server busy messages as it is
Old 04 April 2003   #51
Thanks for the vid ambient!

I would love to see a feature like that in Maya.
Having both methods would be awesome.

Thanks for the time put into the vid and sharing it!!!!
I wish my lawn was emo so it would cut itself.
Old 04 April 2003   #52
Great job putting that video together ambient-whisper. It's a bit too fast for me to understanding it 100% but then again I'm just getting into rigging in Maya now. Nevertheless I'm find it very interesting and informative.

Something tells me that Jason (Mr. schleifer) might have someting up his sleeve?
Old 04 April 2003   #53
Quote: Originally posted by Rudity
Thanks for the vid ambient!

I would love to see a feature like that in Maya.
Having both methods would be awesome.

Thanks for the time put into the vid and sharing it!!!!

Downloading now. Ditto on the thanks Ambient! !!
::b.Schulz . CharActeR aNimatoR ::
Old 04 April 2003   #54
kaydara Motion Builder


If you are lookin for Real time feedback on your animation and IK/FK Blending that kicks ass...then u must check out Kaydara's Motion Builder.I have been foolin around with it some....and it rocks.I guess it can do what Mirais FK/Ik can do too.....but i have never worked with Marai so im not sure.
If any of you do ckeck out Kaydara's motion builder...i would love to hear from you.

Old 04 April 2003   #55
no problemo i just dont want this tech to be wasted

and heres a mirror to it
Old 04 April 2003   #56
Does anyone know of technical papers on how this works? Ever since i read this post I've been thinking about how this could be accomplished (the math part). I haven't used either package, but i can see this being implemented through API and MEL. Not using any hierarchy (parent/child) but having it change depending on what you have selected (and end where ever you have it "clamped down")

But every time i think i figure out how it could work, i think of how that method wouldn't :annoyed:

Note: any errors of fact are directly attributable to me not knowing of what I speak
Old 04 April 2003   #57
Awesome video,tho my head was spinnin towards the end .....i had no idea mirai was this good...and great modeling and rigging from you.Hope mirai makes a comeback!!

Old 04 April 2003   #58
ambient-whisper, thanks for posting the video. I don't remember if I read this here or on Bay's sight but I remember someone saying there were limitations to Mirai's skeletal system compared with what other programs are doing now. Are there any problems with customising these kind of rigs? Like driving objects and so forth.
Old 04 April 2003   #59
yeah. i mentioned that earlier in this thread. you can customize the skeleton but since most functions are built in.. you cant customize some things specifically just incase you would need to overwrite some functionality that might be there and do something else with it.
Old 04 April 2003   #60
oh and mirai is from 1999 - i dont want to know what they do 2003 if they were still alive - ambient-whisper thanks for showing us the power and is there anything mirai cant do
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