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Old 03-08-2013, 01:39 PM   #16
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Try some not overly directly lit scene. Some with more natural lighting where diffuse light bouncing and color bleeding are key components. Also, where more complex shaders are necessary. The scene used for demonstration is so flat, it would make little difference even if you compare scanline against Vray in it
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:08 PM   #17
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Rawalanche >
Great Archviz renders on your web!!! -
What is render times for these real renderers? And what about animations? Does it flicker?
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by furryball
I love these common truths...

I suppose Blizzard, or Valve is no so much LOWEND production...
http://furryball.aaa-studio.cz/showcase/index.html

We also made whole CGI feature for cinema in FurryBall:
http://www.goatstorymovie.com/goatstory2/



as far as i can notice, all showcase samples are toon styles, correct me if am wrong......

as for the blizzard, i know that people in blizzard cinematix use renderman, FYI

you have to low down your altitude, and understand, as i already said, studios already have their pipleline and workflow made way back before you even had an idea of making furryball

you just cant show one day and start spit out on other peoples products, trying to show/convince them that their product is what ever it is.

im not saying that furryball is bad its just not for what most of the people do in industry...

cheers
 
Old 03-08-2013, 02:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bazuka
you just cant show one day and start spit out on other peoples products, trying to show/convince them that their product is what ever it is.
cheers


Was I spit out to other product? When?
As I said, FurryBall is NOT for stillimage makers who need hyperrealistic renders and can wait. In this can't compete with ray-tracers.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:06 PM   #20
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I think what people are trying to say simply is that even for animation and other VFX and animation work - which is highly demanding - more and more realism is required on less budget and less time. So therefor that limits you to Mray Vray, Arnold etc...

What furrynall offers is clearly not a direct competition to those apps. But on the other hand how are you going to compare it?

If you don't compare people will ask. if you do, people will say... yeah but...

Furryball is something I have been looking into for an animation project. Part of evaluation at this stage is what I can and can not get away with compromising.

I think Furryball offers something alternative to the other top-heavy solutions. It fits a niche and it fits it well I think.

Obviously Pixar won't be using it any time soon. But it is certainly an alternative for certain projects that could use it, when before the only option was to go with solutions that would cost much more to do a similar render style.

I think it is cool.

And I think people are able to see that for themselves on its own merrits.
 
Old 03-08-2013, 04:10 PM   #21
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I understand what people are saying here, I agree that vray scene looks better, I'm sure this rendertime could be lowered down a bit (actually what bothers me it that we don't know what CPU was used - i7 doesn't mean anything, it could be a low end i7 or an overclocked i7 3960K), but let's not go into details, you would never be able to render this in less than 8 minutes on a CPU that worths a GTX 580 (so a i7 3930k). And don't start complaining about his english level, it looks like you're making it personal

Furryball will always render stuff faster than any raytracer, obviously you have to make some concessions but that shouldn't be really affecting the overall look of the image. I see the realtime engines becoming more and more interesting for a lot of jobs, and why not arch vis. The Cry engine is already used in some architecture studios, and they have made Cinebox for creating cinematics.
What if your client wants you to change the floor, and wants to have the update right now, looking over your shoulder. Vray RT will help but won't reach the same quality as Furryball could, in terms of anti-aliasing / image grain. Fryrender was good for that but it has been canned.

Having said that, I think Furryball needs a better gallery to convince me that it's capable of doing, most of the stuff I see have badly composited and overly used ambient occlusion (multiply it to the ambient lighting buffer, not the direct lighting or over the final image), or users didn't know how to use proper linear workflow.

And... the most important point... The price! When I started my short movie, I tested several render engines to decide which one I would use, Furryball was on my list... then I saw the price, and didn't even bother try it. Please make an affordable non-commercial version (around 250 euros?) or a big sale to make your user base grow, otherwise I don't see how you will sell that to freelancers or hobbyists. Character artists, game artists could really use it instead of previewing their stuff in Marmoset or in the Unreal Engine / Cry Engine, but they won't spend 1000 euros for it.

Last edited by chafouin : 03-08-2013 at 08:33 PM.
 
Old 03-08-2013, 05:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chafouin
And... the most important point... The price! When I started my short movie, I tested several render engines to decide which one I would use, Furryball was on my list... then I saw the price, and didn't even bother try it. Please make an affordable non-commercial version (around 250 euros?) or a big sale to make your user base grow, otherwise I don't see how you will sell that to freelancers or hobbyists. Character artists, game artists could really use it instead of previewing their stuff in Marmoset or in the Unreal Engine / Cry Engine, but they won't speed a 1000 euros for it.


Yes, there is EDU version for students for 299,- EUR.
It's relative - 999,- EUR is the similar price like other renderers. If you will make some "cartoon" style movie and you will compare it with renderman for example, it will be at least 5 TIMES faster (so, you will save money for 4 licences of Renderman...)
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:55 PM   #23
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I am talking about small studios, freelancers, hobbyists, or indie projects, they won't spend that much money, they will struggle with mental ray, maybe buy mental core or Octane render, or look at free or open source stuff (Unreal Engine, CryEngine, Blender Cycles, LuxRender, Marmoset, Nox Renderer, etc...).

Don't forget that maya 2013.5 also now supports directX11. Proper realtime rendering in maya viewport could hurt your sales as well.

I'm not saying that it doesn't worth it, and that you didn't put a lot of effort to make it. I actually hope your sale numbers are good.
 
Old 03-08-2013, 07:04 PM   #24
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You have to try it yourself....
But try to make in Unreal Engine, CryEngine, Blender Cycles, LuxRender, Marmoset, Nox Renderer, or Maya 2013.5 all these features:

Fur, production quality antialiasing, unlimited lights, Maya Particles and Fluids, indirect lighting, area lights, render passes, EXR output...
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Last edited by furryball : 03-08-2013 at 07:12 PM.
 
Old 03-08-2013, 08:42 PM   #25
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Again, I think Furryball is impressive, and I never said it wasn't worth it, but when you don't have money (and can't print it), you just make concessions: no fur, no fluids, no FG.

I wished you had priced it lower, you don't have to fulfil my wish. That is sad because I was defending your point of view and your software, but now the "unprofessional" tone of this conversation starts to annoy me...
 
Old 03-08-2013, 09:57 PM   #26
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Hello,

i looked at your comparison page ( http://furryball.aaa-studio.cz/abou...ll/compare.html ), and i found results posted there quite interesting, so i took a liberty of using the "REAL" benchmark scene you provide, and did some tests of my own.

But before i proceed to the tests, i would like to clear some variables here:

1, On your comparison page, you are comparing mid-end CPU with hi-end GPU of different price category. That is not very fair comparison. Average cost of i5 3330 here in central Europe is about $225, while average price of GTX580 is about $500. Closest to GTX580 price is i7 3770k CPU that is priced on average of $400, so i will be using it in some theoretical approximations.

2, The CPU i did the tests on is i7 870, which is very slightly slower than i5 3330, according to these sources:

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html
http://browser.primatelabs.com/processor-benchmarks

Also, according to these sources (and some other that i forgot to bookmark), i7 3770k (the one closest to GTX580 price range) is about twice as fast as i5 3330.

3, I found it quite curious that in your comparison boards, you present that for example Vray, MentalRay or Maxwell do not have realtime viewport. All of these renderes have their interactive rendering mode. (Vray RT, iRay and Maxwell fire). Also, i do not understand why if entire board is built on boolean values (true/false) why are there some inbetween areas for FurryBall.

If raytracing or GI is simulated, or in case of FurryBall better said faked, then FurryBall is simply not capable of these effects, so there should be a red cross like in case of other renderers, same in case of baking capability. Otherwise, there could be inbetween features written for every of the renderer in some way.

Now, for the test themselves:

First one is Mental Ray. GI is enabled and unified sampling is used. The scene took 22 minutes and 42 seconds to get a decently clean result. So i really can not understand how did you manage to get strongly grainy result in 40 minutes.



Second one is Vray. GI is enabled and adaptive DMC sampler used. The scene took 15 minutes and 23 seconds to render. Again, decently clean result, and not nearly as bad rendertime as in your examples.



Last one is Corona renderer. Just to have some more data for comparison. The image took 10 minutes and 35 seconds to render. Unlike MentalRay and Vray, GI set up in Corona was a full brute force solution.




So yes, even after doing some optimized tests, FurryBall still clearly wins speed wise. But there are still some things to consider.

If i average all the results i got and results you present on your page, average rendertime for such a scene is about 10-15 minutes on CPU.

Now as i stated above, CPU that is closer to the price range of the GPU you used is about twice as fast, so that put's us (in heavy theory) in about 7-8 minutes/frame. That would make those comparison dashboards presented on your site look quite funny.

And if you compare 23 seconds to 7-8 minutes, yes... it's still big, but you may already start to think about if such time difference is really worth that significant quality difference. I would say not, because it's mostly quality, what is valued in this industry.

By the way does this mean that if i buy more renderers, i will render faster?


At last, i am attaching the scenes that i used to produce renders above. It requires Max 2013 for Mental Ray scene, Max 2013 and Vray 2.30 for Vray scene, and for Corona, unfortunately only users with access to latest daily builds are able to open this one, but some of them might stumble upon this

I would also love anyone with i7 3770k who owns Vray and MR to run these scenes and see if my approximations get close to reality.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37383285/FurryBallBenchmark.zip

Edit: made pictures linked
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Last edited by Rawalanche : 03-08-2013 at 10:04 PM.
 
Old 03-08-2013, 10:34 PM   #27
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Thanks for tests - Great!
Sorry our mistake,
I was looking again on our test computer and it was
CPU Intel Core i5 2500 - 3,3GHz, 6MB, socket 1155)
No i5 3300, as was written on our page. Now it's corrected.

So it's about 15-20% slower than your CPU, but this is not matter... Yes, your render time are much better. You knows these renderers very well and know how to tweak it. We just set "final quality" and press render in most cases.

But it is still 50 TIMES faster (OK, no 100 TIMES).
Yes, you can use much faster CPU, but we also used "just" GEFORCE 580. GEFORCE 680 is 50% faster and TITAN is 100% faster...
So if you "will be" on 7 minutes, FurryBall will be on 10 second (still 42 TIMES faster...)
BTW we are using ONLY ONE core, you are using MANY CORE CPU

And this test scene is also very simple....


Yes of course, you will be faster with more renderers and computers in the farm (we are talking about MOVIE rendering, NOT still image).
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Last edited by furryball : 03-08-2013 at 11:19 PM.
 
Old 03-08-2013, 10:41 PM   #28
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1, Bad multithreading is not an excuse

2, i5 2500 is actually faster CPU than i5 3330, so now you have even more boost compared to me.

3, I was not talking about possibility of faster CPUs, but about price/performance ratio.

4, Render node licencing is usually priced a lot differently than regular seats. You never buy node licences at same prices, there are usually some significant discounts.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:52 PM   #29
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I think comparing a great hardware renderer like Furryball with vray in a cg forum is not a clever decision. Furryballs looks like it's a nice fast renderer for stylized animations and shortfilms but it is not impressive enough for photorealistic stuff like archviz animation. The Carlos Ortega pics in your gallery are excellent. Also the hardware rendered fluid/smoke looks very cool. Those pics&animations show me where Furryball shines, not the images in this thread.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:57 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawalanche
Bad multithreading is not an excuse

....Excuse for what? For 50 times faster render...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawalanche
Render node licencing is usually priced a lot differently than regular seats. You never buy node licences at same prices, there are usually some significant discounts.

- What about price of computers and power????? This is much more than discount..
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