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Old 07-18-2013, 08:10 AM   #1
darkgaze
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Workflow Avid + Nuke?

Hi there!

Just a question. How is your workflow with Avid Media Composer and Nuke?

I edited the whole shortfilm. Now i realized i had this problem... how to bring to nuke everything and start editing the colors, adding more elements, and thigs like that?.

My main problems/questions are:

- If i export to qt reference file which i can load in Nuke (is it true you guys use it?), i see all the frames of the shortfilm. How to work differently on each take? How do i apply a diferent configuration? should i make an animated toggle (like a multiplexor) between the editions and the READ node?... or what??

- Would it be better to export each scene, and edit it separately?... HELL, sounds CRAZY!... Or should i do all of this before edition...?? sounds bad, i donīt know how it would be at the end!. For example, to keep the same color edition and all of that stuff for every camera sequence... like they should be the same, of course. Or should i copy/paste the style through all the same takes coming from the same source?.

Everything in the workflow sounds madness to me.

How do you guys work with this two programs?
Thanks!
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:30 AM   #2
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Quote:
- Would it be better to export each scene, and edit it separately?... HELL, sounds CRAZY!
No. Sounds logical, not crazy and is the usual way to go. If your edit isn't locked, add handles (10f to a whole second) in case you need to adjust something.


Quote:
... Or should i do all of this before edition...?? sounds bad, i donīt know how it would be at the end!.
It doesn't sound bad, it is bad.

Quote:
For example, to keep the same color edition and all of that stuff for every camera sequence... like they should be the same, of course. Or should i copy/paste the style through all the same takes coming from the same source?.

You can copy nodes in Nuke very easily, just select your node(s), copy and paste into another script.
You can even save them in a text file and copy/paste that into any nuke script or even edit nodes/scripts in a text editor.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 09:41 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimski
No. Sounds logical, not crazy and is the usual way to go. If your edit isn't locked, add handles (10f to a whole second) in case you need to adjust something.


Thanks!

But let me explain.
I have my shortfilm, already edited, but not finished (maybe i expand or change position of some of the takes). Some of the scenes have like even seconds of video mixed. I'm not keen on cinematography vocabulary in english, but iīll try to explain...

I have a scene with a conversation. I want to change the color. Itīs two cameras looking to both directions.(plane and counterplane?). Now i have it all edited, but the truth is that i have many 1 second or less takes, a lot of them. What would you do to fix the color of both cameras?. Export all of the takes (could be like 30), 1 second some of them. Or just both cameras?.
For example this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX8gBNZR1yc

Any of the ways, how do i bring it back to Avid and see the result?. Should i render the output ?... that makes me unnable to mix it once again and fix anything i need!. Itīs fixed size now!
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:49 AM   #4
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Quote:
I have my shortfilm, already edited, but not finished (maybe i expand or change position of some of the takes)
Hence the suggestion with the handles(handle= additional frames on head and tail of the take in case you need to extend).
You'll also need to export the parts of your takes that are used in dissolves.

Quote:
Export all of the takes (could be like 30), 1 second some of them. Or just both cameras?.
That depends. Visual effects work is shot based so in general I'd export all takes(or shots) but if it saves way more time, then just the whole source, apply the VFX work and conform the export it after re-importing in Avid.

Quote:
Any of the ways, how do i bring it back to Avid and see the result?. Should i render the output ?
Render in Nuke, then re-import into Avid using AMA link.

Quote:
... that makes me unnable to mix it once again and fix anything i need!. Itīs fixed size now!
What do you mean with fixed size? What do you need to mix?

Last edited by scrimski : 07-18-2013 at 09:53 AM.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 10:09 AM   #5
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Oh. I see.

So maybe i should have edited colors on every camera first, and then edit... That would be much better, i think, right?.

Yes, the handles, i see. Ok, thatīs good idea. So what i understand here is that i sould not finish anything if iīm not sure about the color correction and what i add in post.

About rendering with nuke: I donīt want to loose quality... It looks like it will do that.

About linking with AMA, my files are imported, are not AMA. But when exporting QT Refrence file, import to nuke, change, then export rendering (which type of file would you use?) and then... AMA import it... and replace each piece of video in Avid... one by one??
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Old 07-18-2013, 01:10 PM   #6
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i would suggest that you rethink your workflow a little bit:

make your edit as final as you can in avid
then export the shots/scenes you want to have vfx in (dont render QT, use some lossless image sequences in as high bit depth you can)
make this vfx in nuke
render out from nuke, reimport this into your avid timeline
and at the end use a color grading software for you color timing (resolve comes in a free editon, if you have adobe CS you have speedgrade)

these color grading softwares are able to import your whole movie in a timeline like an edit program (via xml, edl, ...), then you can color grade all your shots, copy and paste looks

i know this needs you to learn another software and leads to some more rendering and import/export, but trust me you will get a much better result and have more fun to work on the color grading. in a grading software you can play your whole movie and watch shots back to back, dont need to render everything (most stuff is there realtime), it links to your original footage from you avid timeline, etc
 
Old 07-18-2013, 01:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
So maybe i should have edited colors on every camera first, and then edit... That would be much better, i think, right?.
No.

Quote:
Yes, the handles, i see. Ok, thatīs good idea. So what i understand here is that i sould not finish anything if iīm not sure about the color correction and what i add in post.
No. Finish your edit as much as possible.

Quote:
About rendering with nuke: I donīt want to loose quality... It looks like it will do that.
That depends on your output. As said, render into an image sequence - tiff, exr or dpx.


Quote:
But when exporting QT Refrence file, import to nuke, change, then export rendering (which type of file would you use?) and then... AMA import it... and replace each piece of video in Avid... one by one??
Export as an image sequence, do your work in Nuke, render out an image sequence(preferably the same format like before), add the processed shots to your edit. Don't replace, add another video track.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 02:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pingking
then export the shots/scenes you want to have vfx in (dont render QT, use some lossless image sequences in as high bit depth you can)


Wow. But what about QTReference file? Itīs suposed to be working on nuke, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pingking
and at the end use a color grading software for you color timing (resolve comes in a free editon, if you have adobe CS you have speedgrade)
These color grading softwares are able to import your whole movie in a timeline like an edit program (via xml, edl, ...), then you can color grade all your shots, copy and paste looks


About this grading programs. What's the name? Resolve?.
But anyway... Avid i think is enough capable of edition color... or not?...
I thought i had to add the color grading at Nuke. Why donīt you guys do it there?.You said that you donīt have to render. I donīt see why you do all this stuff.

And what about opening in nuke a long sequence, dividing in parts a multiplexor so i add different efects in each shot?


Thanks for the help! Iīm trying to understand the process to make it easy for me. No prob with learning new software, no prob with anything.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimski
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkgaze
So maybe i should have edited colors on every camera first, and then edit... That would be much better, i think, right?.

No.


Why not? All scenes need the same parameters, why not change it all at the same time, and then edit the resulting long takes?
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Old 07-18-2013, 03:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Wow. But what about QTReference file? Itīs suposed to be working on nuke, right?
Try it. If it works - good.

Quote:
About this grading programs. What's the name? Resolve?.
There's Resolve's DaVinci, Color, Nucoda, Filmlight and a few more.
Quote:
But anyway... Avid i think is enough capable of edition color... or not?...
Yes. But specialized software offers more functionality, more control. And usually you'd submit the whole edit to the grading software without ex/importing single shots.
Quote:
I thought i had to add the color grading at Nuke. Why donīt you guys do it there?.You said that you donīt have to render. I donīt see why you do all this stuff.

Of course you need to render at some point.

Quote:
And what about opening in nuke a long sequence, dividing in parts a multiplexor so i add different efects in each shot?
Impractical. Possible but I wouldn't recommend it.

Quote:
All scenes need the same parameters, why not change it all at the same time, and then edit the resulting long takes?
In theory it might work, practically often not. So you are better off copying and pasting your correction nodes to individual shots.

All of the above is not written in stone. If you want to try your attempt and it works better for you that way, do so, in the end it's about results.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 03:51 PM   #11
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Hey, thanks a lot. :-)

Just a note and question:
I suggested doing all the sequence together, although it could be impractical as you said, because its obvious any composer/editor would like to see the whole sequence playing all over many times to see how it fits, to tell if itīs ok , the colors, what happens between each take... To see the whole picture... So anybody do that? you check that out in Avid, and come back again, and again to nuke?. Sounds weird to me.

Do you know any book, resource available about this? The workflow between maya, or any example tutorials or whatever?.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:16 PM   #12
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[QUOTE=darkgaze
About this grading programs. What's the name? Resolve?.
But anyway... Avid i think is enough capable of edition color... or not?...
I thought i had to add the color grading at Nuke. Why donīt you guys do it there?.You said that you donīt have to render. I donīt see why you do all this stuff.

And what about opening in nuke a long sequence, dividing in parts a multiplexor so i add different efects in each shot?
[/QUOTE]

nuke is capable of doing the color work you want, but it is designed as a shot by shot vfx compositing program.
its not a strength of nuke to playback long sequences of shots in realtime. and it would be no fun to have several animated grades, color correction tools, mask, keyers, etc. as you said you have cutted very short takes from camA and camB in a dialog scene. then you have to animated the color grading for each shot on and off at the right frame. and then you change your edit and you have to move all these keyframes. thats not how nuke is desigend to work.

a dedicated grading tool can do all the color work in a better way: you can import your edit as an timeline with individual shots
you can playback in realtime your color grade
you can compare shots/scenes
you can copy/paste looks from one shot to others
the grading you did will stay on the clip even if you reconform your project, because the edit has changed



as i sad a typicall workflow is like this:
edit an offline version (low resolution files) for better speed in the edit programm
when you close to finish you edit, make an "online" version = bring in the high resultion files
export the shots you need VFX for as an lossless image sequence
make the VFX and bring it back into the edit
go to an color grading software for final grade

take a look at: http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve
and some youtube beginner videos, you will see how much this can add to your project

Last edited by pingking : 07-18-2013 at 09:22 PM.
 
Old 07-19-2013, 07:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pingking
a dedicated grading tool can do all the color work in a better way: you can import your edit as an timeline with individual shots
you can playback in realtime your color grade
you can compare shots/scenes
you can copy/paste looks from one shot to others
the grading you did will stay on the clip even if you reconform your project, because the edit has changed


Thanks for all! pingking. Thanks a lot. Very useful info, i got it at last.

About the grading programn, i think what you send me is ultraprofessional. For a shortfilm made with a very low price camera with friends i think Avid grading tools will be enough for me. But thatīs very nice , indeed. I understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pingking
(...) edit an offline version (low resolution files) for better speed in the edit programm
when you close to finish you edit, make an "online" version = bring in the high resultion files


About this, that's new for me. You say offline = low res. So you capture your video... in low resolution?... and then in high resolution?... how do you swap them when you finish the edition?... Interesting! Avid only mentions offline when the media is "offline". I donīt think thatīs what you say. is it available in Avid docs?
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Last edited by darkgaze : 07-19-2013 at 08:03 AM.
 
Old 07-19-2013, 08:37 AM   #14
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Quote:
So you capture your video... in low resolution?
The idea behind this is saving disc space and resources. In Avid you can't edit anything above HD resolution so if you want to edit 2K or 4K footage you'll have to edit with lower resolution and online elsewhere(ie Smoke or Flame).

Lowres or offline could also mean you capture all your media in a codec with lesser quality like DnxHD 36 nd when done editing you recapture in a better quality like DnxHD 185 using the batch capture command or batch import command which makes sense when you have lots of material.
Ie I am working on a documentary with 180+ hours of raw material, the estimated final length is around 100 minutes.
In full resolution this requires around 9 TB compared to 3 TB when imported in low-res.

This may not make sense for short movies and has it's pros(less space, smaller data rate) and cons(requires extra time and some knowledge of media management).



Quote:
Avid only mentions offline when the media is "offline". I donīt think thatīs what you say.
No. Thats something different. This means Media Composer can't find your footage.

Quote:
is it available in Avid docs?
Search the docs for "Feature Film Offline Workflow"

Last edited by scrimski : 07-19-2013 at 08:43 AM.
 
Old 07-19-2013, 09:08 AM   #15
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I see... Interesting. I didnīt know Smoke,Flame were used for that. Iīll check that out.

Thanks a lot. Iīll see how useful is this for me. !

Thanks for your time. Good luck with your documentary.
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