Body topology

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  12 December 2003
Looking better and better Steven.

But keeping the thread topic on track would you mind posting some wires? I'd like to see a close up of the arm pit if you don't mind.
Gene Crucean
Arnold Renderer
  12 December 2003

Looking great!

What are you doing with the head/ neck juncture. Are you keeping them separate for some reason?
MySpace CGPortfolio
  12 December 2003
Hey Steven ...Is that a feet translucency faked or actual setting. How are they subscattering pink like that? Texturemap!!?
Maya | Lightwave | Messiah
  12 December 2003
I just updated the deftest1.jpg above, with an improved armpit.

Here's a closeup of the wire of the armpit: if I had it to do over right now, I'd decrease the amount of polys slightly in there, but for now I've already done all the Blendshapes and I want to keep going forward.

Thanks Rich.
Julez4001, that's using my skinshader, tute on my site. I'm actually using 2, one with a stronger translucency fake is appearing on the toes and sole (like the idea I mention in the tute).
  12 December 2003
The beauty of Lightwave is that when you make your endomorphs (embedded blendshapes) anytime you tweak the base the morphs get updated too.

You might want to learn the drag, move, weld, bandsaw (slice row of polys) in LW's modeler and that you can create/edit and bring your morphs back in. Ther eis a plugin that export lw format and separate the morphs into separate objs as well as convert to .obj format.
Look on
Maya | Lightwave | Messiah
  12 December 2003
julez...the problem with mayas blendshapes is the vertices have to be in the exact same order...tweaking the base is fine, but if there is a single vertex added after the wont carry over to the even it was done in LW....the vert count and order would have to be identical...

and at least for steves modelling methodology with non quad polys...LW modelling methods are different.
  12 December 2003
He could still do it. Make a master lwo file with his blenshapes...want to add or take prob.
Then just reexport. and since he is not metanurbing for Maya..he can keep his low poly form.
Maya | Lightwave | Messiah
  12 December 2003
Yes julez that would work, except I'd have to redo all my Set Driven Keys, and there's quite a lot of them, some overlapping, many keys with tweaked tangents etc. I'd have to go through it, make a thorough written description of every cruve and key, to be able to get it back to what it was. It would take hours and I could certainly do it, but I hesitate. What if I do it, and the next day I want to add another edge somewhere?

edit: I also find that I'd place the edges across the top of the stomach, just under the solar plexus, more horizontal now.

Sorry, Rich I forgot: yes I'm keeping the head separate to be able to use different heads. I put the cut just under the jawline.

projectcoil: very nice update! Only crit would be, maybe a 'bigger' bellybutton?

Last edited by Stahlberg : 12 December 2003 at 01:58 AM.
  12 December 2003
Steven, I'm a long time fan of your work.
This post is really fascinating and causing quite a stir throughout the modeling world. It actually prompted me to sign up.

The plain simple fact that quadrifying ( is that a word?! ) everything ( in Mya at least ) is immensely more time consuming than not, is what's compelling me to experiment with your observations. I've worked in realtime 3D for years, but only recently got into higher res techniques. Your post is refreshing because being totally anal about topology was really bogging me down.

Anyway, the point of my post is really all about Maya blendshapes. I notice you mention them out of context of the face, so Im assuming you have joint blendshapes setup in Maya to aid deformation?
Anyhow, Im getting the impression that you feel you can't touch original mesh
'cos it'll break everything you have and you'd have to redo the shapes?
If so I'd always assumed that too but in working on this game model recently recently ( ) I completely by chance figured out a way to adjust my base model and propogate those changes ( within certain limitations ) to the blendshapes. I guess in a nutshell Im saying there are some ways to tweak base mesh without having to redo shapes from scratch.

I kind of strangely feel that I'm totally stating the obvious here. So Im reluctant to go on into more detail as Im sure you have some means to do this too. But If not I'd be happy to proliferate.

Cheers. Oh and er, happy xmas all n' stuff!
  12 December 2003
Could you post a SubD wire of the last image...
Just interesting how it would look like...
  12 December 2003
it takes a name to break the quad hystery... and im glad its been done

dont underestimate the power of a clean 5 or a well placed 3!
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  12 December 2003
Here's what the SubD of the above polygon looks like. (Although I raised the deltoid with regards to the clavicle a little yesterday.)

DazP, I'm interested in that method you mentioned, it's not obvious to me. But you can email me privately if you like.

edit: there is one little bump in the armpit, there's a 3gon next to a 5gon, I'll get rid of it. Well, that's my work-flow in a nutshell; trial and error.

Last edited by Stahlberg : 12 December 2003 at 03:15 AM.
  12 December 2003
Very nice work as usual Steven,gotta love those impossible poses,you mind doing some more

Here is character been working on for while now,I wanted it to be be able to perform alot muscle flexing in abdominal,tricep,biceps,forearm etc with very flowing mesh
Ended up with pretty dense wireframe.

Might aswell throw in pic of her hair W.I.P

I probably wont end up using this mesh instead hold out until Z-Brush is released and be able to just use displacement maps.

Steven,have you had chance to try them out yet?

Anyone here beta tester for Z-Brush or used displacement maps in other programs doing things like muscle flexing?

I know for movies like Final Flight of Osiris had tools for doing this.
Anyone here know what they used for The Hulk ?
Mike Andrew Nash - VFX

Last edited by MikeNash : 12 December 2003 at 03:57 AM.
  12 December 2003
I'm with Steven, Post it. Some people might know it some might not.
Gene Crucean
Arnold Renderer
  12 December 2003
Steven, visualboo:

I almost feel silly saying it now it seems so screamingly simple and obvious. But anyway, incase it isn't to anyone:

So, you have your shapes done and they're integrated into the rig, then your client decides the nose isn't right. My solution:
Once shapes are connected, go ahead and model into your actual base shape and make your adjustments. As you do so simply turn on a few of your shapes and notice that your base model works fine with the new topology and morphs OK from base to shape. It doesn't explode or anything. Dont delete history history. You'll notice things start to bog down after a while because of this which restricts exactly how much work you can do. You do have to keep checking things are OK though by turning the shapes on and off every now and then. Since eventually, it will freak out. As a general rule I've found that adding rows using split poly is absolutely fine. Start to flip edges and delete verts and it can handle it to, but with these operations it'll reach a point much more quickly where stuff starts to break.

When you're happy with your new base tweaks, simply spit out all the new shapes with the new mesh topology by turning them on one by one and duplicating. It's laborious, but not so hard to write a script that can handle it.

I was gonna add an image to explain better. But my webhost seems to be down. Again, apologies If this is super obvious. It's only something I recently discovered was possible after using Maya for some time.

Anyway, I sense a derailment, so back on topic of mesh topology!

Kravit thats a great looking female , but the density terrifies me ( probably the game artist in me. ) Slightly o/t but what did you use to solve the hair If you dont mind me asking? Looks very good indeed.

Steven, I can't get over how simple your buttocks are ( as it were ) in your base mesh. Really impressive.
I too have recently decided to play more with not being so anal about quads since it's just so time consuming. Heres a recent wip ( unsmoothed ) female of mine with that in mind: Quads for the most part, but 3 and 5 sides aplenty too:

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