Body topology

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  12 December 2003
swag, that sounds great. It gives me another rendering option.
JasonA, that's 3400 faces unsmoothed, not including the head. The seam goes just under the jawbone from ear to ear.
gmask, I agree about the inside of the elbows. And about the seam, from what I've heard I might be able to weld the head on later and still keep all my Blendshapes for each surface, but that is un-tested. If not, I'm sure I can find some way to minimize the seam.
lazzhar, roger and TomD, thanks.
Elliotjnewman, I tested Maya SubD's in MTOR.

somlor, I'm not sure if I've mastered anything. I just keep going back and forth from the poly to the SubD, spinning it and comparing it to my references. If it doesn't look right I try something different. Repeat until I'm either satisfied, or say 'close enough for now'. (I'm never really done with these things you know.)
You could get away with leaving 5's and 3's in many places on the face, it all depends on the exact shape and what's next to it. What creates a bump in the SubD or smoothed version is when a polygon has a big difference in it's surface area compared to the ones next to it. Big/small, fat/thin, quad/tri - triangles are usually smaller than the neighbouring quads, that's mostly what makes the bump or discontinuity. It's all about how close 2 eges or 2 points are to each other, a lot like NURBS modeling. 5-sided can be more easily 'hidden' if you have to, they aren't as likely to show up clearly as triangles. But they will if the surfaces deforms a lot, so watch out for that.

Yes, I can imagine some kind of perfectly smooth blob-like creature that couldn't take any triangles or n-gons anywhere. But that's theoretical.
I'd teach this method to a beginner, because it's easier than forcing all-quads. You can always struggle with that all-quad requirement later if you had to - although I would introduce the methods, how to do it all-quads, too (you could call my method 'mostly quads'). I'm not against edgeloops per se,they're a vital concept as fas as placing the edges to follow surface contours and wrinkles etc. But they don't necessarily IMO have to form perfect loops everytime (in Maya).
I'm not that familiar with Bay's modeling but I believe he started modeling on a software that required all-quads right (Mirai)? Anyway, if I remember correctly I think I've seen some example of his that wasn't totally all-quad. But I'm not sure. But, yes it obviously works very well for him. So it could be more of a personal choice I suppose.
eYadNesS, here's the back wire.

  12 December 2003
What I understood so far about edgeloop is that you have to try to avoid pole, but tris and quad could coexist if there is no troubles when animating/rendering.
Maybe this thread found in spiraloid forum could help!
Anyway very very interesting topic
  12 December 2003
yeah,great stuff
the topology is really following/flowing along the basic muscle/bone structures...
and really even the form of the body like the "buns"(lol)...etc
intresting stuff steve,thx
  12 December 2003
Steven can you post this on spiraloid i think it would make a very interesting discussion.

  12 December 2003
to swag
can you please shed some more light on that direct rendering
of low poly surface with mental ray?
Does it mean that I dont have to convert my lowpoly in to subdivision surface
and that I can tell mray to subdivide it at render time?
That one would be a life saver.
  12 December 2003
i-d : Yeah, that's right I tried it last night, and although I couldn't get it to work with my model... not sure why yet, prob ngon issues, but it works fine with quads. Can anyone tell me if there is a problem with tris and ngons with mental ray subds? I plan to clean it up to be quads anyway. In fact, I believe there is an option to convert ngons to quads in the mental ray options. I plan to look it up tonight, I didn't have the time last night, but I'm kind of excited about this if anyone has any tips or solutions.
  12 December 2003
Sorry to push this slightly o.t. but can anyone
explain me how to make mental Ray subd´s work?
  12 December 2003
try using the collapse hierachy under the subd surfaces drop down. Ive heard MR doesnt like nsided or tri. otherwise perfoem a level 1 smooth before a subdconversion to create all quads (pretty much the same as collapse hierachy...

  12 December 2003
i-d : not sure if this is the proper way, but after selecting MR renderer, go to rendering editors->mental ray->and then from memory here.. click create and then under geometry approximation select mr subds.
  12 December 2003
KidderD mental Ray cant render maya subd with ngon or tris u have collapse hierarchy and i mean render poly´s direct with mr

i-d hmm - lets start you have your poly model then go to windows->rendering editors->mental ray->approximation editor in the approximation editor there are 4 section for approximation we want the last one ... select ur poly model (with tris) say create now a mentalraySubdivApprox Attribute is created ... here u can set all mr subd stuff - now render the scene and voila mr renders subd´s
  12 December 2003
i have problems with some meshes dont know why but if i triangulate the mesh mr have no problem - if the subd looks odd
play with the SubdApprox Attributes (mesh conversion)
  12 December 2003
Thanks. Thats what I was hoping for.
Is triangulaing meshes really neccesary?
Why dont mental ray triangulate that mesh for itself and
leave my topology intact?
  12 December 2003
i-d triangulating meshes is not really neccesary but i have some meshes wont render without triangulating so try it
  12 December 2003
A couple issues I have with 5+ sided polys or face termination is that it causes operations like tighten to pull that one point to a much greater degree than other selected points (and tends to cause texture warping without special care). This isn't so much of an issue for something like an elbow that chances are, you won't be creating a lot of target states with. However, if you have a head with lots of 5+ sided faces and you are planning on building dozens or hundreds of target states, the process of having to constantly mind the smoothing of 5 sided polys can become a major chore and time consideration. (ie: is it quicker and easier to terminate the edges better from the get-go)

I'm not too sure what the term is for how maya's sub-D's blend varying detail levels but it seems to do a pretty good job if you have something like a hand that is 2x the resolution of the arm, you can join the poly pieces with 5 sided polys around the wrist and the poly to Sub-D process adds the funky looking blended seam. The resulting model tends to look better than if you were to smooth the blended area with polys (or at least from what I can tell).

Mirai accomodates 5+sides but it starts to slow down as you add detail and more n-gons. There is also no "subdivision" object type.

5-side poly discussion.

Last edited by muckywetnoodle : 12 December 2003 at 08:47 PM.
  12 December 2003
Quote: Originally posted by swag
i have problems with some meshes dont know why but if i triangulate the mesh mr have no problem - if the subd looks odd
play with the SubdApprox Attributes (mesh conversion)

From Mental Ray documentation:

"Triangles and quads can be mixed in the same subdivision surface, but they may not share vertices."

Sorry for my
terrible English.

Sketch everyday
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