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Old 08-07-2012, 09:32 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostAbuse
You're a gamer though right? Look at where the games industry is heading - DX11 has been around for some time and you've got places like Crytek, DICE, Epic all pushing it and geniuses like John Carmack finding even more ways to push hardware to the limits. I spent many years in the games industry and the biggest disconnect is the fact you're basically in an environment that looks or represents nothing of your final target. That said I hear the Linux/Mac folks saying the same thing that they want the OpenGL 4.0 stuff and all these screen space effects as well so they too can iterate faster with something more representative of their final deliverable. You know I've got your back

It's bloody superb. I just received my Lacie 1TB Little Big Disk and have it setup as a two drive unit with dual 512gb SSD's so I can have projects/photos on one HFS partition and my games and large scene files on my NTFS drive (only carved out 40gb for Bootcamp).


Me, a gamer? No, not really. I was many years ago and I consider the golden age of gaming to be the 8, 16 and 32-bit generations, which peaked with the Sega Saturn. Nowadays I have little to no patience for them and generally find them a waste of my time.

DX certainly has it's advantages, as pointed out by your examples. What I inherently dislike about it is it's proprietary nature. It is, and always will be locked down to MS Operating Systems. It will never find it's way to Linux or OSX for better or for worse. That to me is a detriment to the advancement of 3D, no matter how much anyone extols it's features.

It's good to now you're fighting our corner though!
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:53 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchDimension
Me, a gamer? No, not really. I was many years ago and I consider the golden age of gaming to be the 8, 16 and 32-bit generations, which peaked with the Sega Saturn. Nowadays I have little to no patience for them and generally find them a waste of my time.

DX certainly has it's advantages, as pointed out by your examples. What I inherently dislike about it is it's proprietary nature. It is, and always will be locked down to MS Operating Systems. It will never find it's way to Linux or OSX for better or for worse. That to me is a detriment to the advancement of 3D, no matter how much anyone extols it's features.

It's good to now you're fighting our corner though!


While DirectX itself may not find its way to Mac or Linux the hardware based effects already have: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC3J...feature=related

Watch that video in 1080p full screen and try to pick out the subtle differences... what you see is screen-space effects, hardware tesselation and numerous other features that you predominantly see in DirectX11 but also with an OpenGL 4.0 equivalent on Linux (and there's a Mac benchmark client) So again, while DirectX is native to Windows OS only that doesn't mean none of the things like tesselation etc can be done on the other platforms (provided equivalent GL support on the other OS's).

I try to represent all of our users as best as I can

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Old 08-07-2012, 10:14 PM   #48
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DirectX is xbox and pc gaming. So it doesn't even cover the whole game development industry. And with open standards gaining momentum in the 3d industry (alembic, pixar open-sudv, openGL 4.3 and openGL ES 3.0....) propietary solutions makes one nervous.

There's no denying that the new features will come in handy for many maya users out there. (including me). it would just have been more elegant and visionary if the new viewport2.0 features were openGL based.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:21 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostAbuse
While DirectX itself may not find its way to Mac or Linux the hardware based effects already have: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC3J...feature=related

Watch that video in 1080p full screen and try to pick out the subtle differences... what you see is screen-space effects, hardware tesselation and numerous other features that you predominantly see in DirectX11 but also with an OpenGL 4.0 equivalent on Linux (and there's a Mac benchmark client) So again, while DirectX is native to Windows OS only that doesn't mean none of the things like tesselation etc can be done on the other platforms (provided equivalent GL support on the other OS's).

I try to represent all of our users as best as I can

-s


Nice video, I hadn't seen this one yet. Thank you for posting it. I have of course no doubt OpenGL is more than capable enough of similar feats.

Barring any OS shortcomings, as long as OSX/Linux versions of Maya get an OpenGL viewport experience akin to that of the DX11 technology, and more or less within the same timeframe, Autodesk will have no arguments from me (on that issue at least).
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:29 PM   #50
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I think (from what I've read and the gaming I do at home) that DX11 and OpenCL are pretty close feature-wise, but the APIs and gaming pipelines in place are generally the issue. Most big gaming companies have DX in their pipelines already, and as they're coding for the Xbox or Windows, it just makes sense. Linux and Mac gaming is still relatively nonexistent, so they go where the profit is.

This will hopefully all change over time, a monopoly is usually a bad thing and often weakens. I'm no fan of DX itself, but for example the Unreal engine? Beautiful. Will it run as smoothly in OpenCL? No, but maybe the next version (Unreal 4) will be coded for both, or coded in a way that doesn't require either. For all I know, it may be easier to write games for OpenCL. The Unigine engine seems well done for both, for certain.

Nice comparison video, thanks for sharing, Boost!
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:26 PM   #51
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ignorant question here, does any other 3D software package support DX11? Or are they all DX9 or earlier?

Looks really really impressive, and I'm sure all the DX11 gaming developers and pre-vis people will be happy to have a way to finally display their work in the viewport or just to have nicer looking viewport renders.

I can't say it really benefits anyone else though for software rendering people. Either way, I hope openGL gets its own update as well so everyone can pick the one that works best for them or their particular game engine.

It'd be fantastic to have a closer approximation between how software rendering engines will render and how things look in the viewport

Last edited by sentry66 : 08-08-2012 at 12:45 AM.
 
Old 08-07-2012, 11:31 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchDimension
\
DX certainly has it's advantages, as pointed out by your examples. What I inherently dislike about it is it's proprietary nature. It is, and always will be locked down to MS Operating Systems. It will never find it's way to Linux or OSX for better or for worse. That to me is a detriment to the advancement of 3D, no matter how much anyone extols it's features.

It's good to now you're fighting our corner though!

But one can also argue that by restricting an API to one operating system, you allow for a more simple, efficient and stable API, since you don't need all these various workarounds implemented into the code for dealing with different OS infrastructures. Your argument would basically mean you shouldn't be wanting to support any of Apple's propriety software either, which they have a lot of.

Operating systems need at least SOME proprietary software, they need to give consumers reasons to buy their software over the opponents. Microsoft managed to do that. No reason to punish them for personal innovation. Disliking everything proprietary, isn't really fair.

I don't see how it's really a detriment either. Both Nvidia, ATI/AMD & Intel work with Microsoft, suggesting and discussing what new features can feasibly be implemented in hardware and in a new version of DX. This process isn't slowed down by a tiny fraction of users who use Macs or Linux, not being able to use DX.
 
Old 08-08-2012, 12:14 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchDimension
Nice video, I hadn't seen this one yet. Thank you for posting it. I have of course no doubt OpenGL is more than capable enough of similar feats.

Barring any OS shortcomings, as long as OSX/Linux versions of Maya get an OpenGL viewport experience akin to that of the DX11 technology, and more or less within the same timeframe, Autodesk will have no arguments from me (on that issue at least).


We'll see what happens We've got the Ideas Forum up for this kind of thing if you guys are really passionate for something then push it there and we review the forum status often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfernalDarkness
I think (from what I've read and the gaming I do at home) that DX11 and OpenCL are pretty close feature-wise, but the APIs and gaming pipelines in place are generally the issue. Most big gaming companies have DX in their pipelines already, and as they're coding for the Xbox or Windows, it just makes sense. Linux and Mac gaming is still relatively nonexistent, so they go where the profit is.

This will hopefully all change over time, a monopoly is usually a bad thing and often weakens. I'm no fan of DX itself, but for example the Unreal engine? Beautiful. Will it run as smoothly in OpenCL? No, but maybe the next version (Unreal 4) will be coded for both, or coded in a way that doesn't require either. For all I know, it may be easier to write games for OpenCL. The Unigine engine seems well done for both, for certain.

Nice comparison video, thanks for sharing, Boost!


For the most part yeah, GL and DX are just two graphics API's so there's some differences but fundamentally you can do stuff shown in the video in both API's. There's some core differences under the hood and if you've ever done a game across multiple platforms it can be agonizing getting all versions of the game balanced properly. When I started playing around with Unity early on I got messing with the device deployment stuff and learned a lot about building to different platforms and stuff. OpenGL ES is what the PS3 and mobile devices like iPad, iPhone etc use for graphics API's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sentry66
ignorant question here, does any other 3D software package support DX11? Or are they all DX9 or earlier?

Looks really really impressive, and I'm sure all the DX11 gaming developers and previs people will be happy for a way to finally display their work in the viewport or to get nicer looking viewport looks.

I can't say it really benefits anyone else though for software rendering people. Either way, I hope openGL gets it's own update as well so everyone can pick the one that works best for them or their particular game engine.

It'd be fantastic to have a closer approximation between how software rendering engines will render and how things look in the viewport


I believe that 3dsmax's NITROUS viewport is DX10 based but they also have DX10 and DX9 modes as well for legacy hardware.

I think you're always going to have variances in how a software render displays things than a viewport unless you really lock yourself to a single rendering tech that draws parallels between both. With things like OpenSubDiv and more technology becoming open sourced I think that bodes well for having more standards in the industry but there's still a pretty big divide between what SW renderers are doing in each renderer and what the hardware is displaying. In the games side of things you've got a lot of major players doing all of their cinematics within the runtime environment so you have to wonder if hardware based viewport effects become "good enough" you could visualize and maybe even render everything right from the viewport buffer without ever having to dispatch to sotware. Digital Domain did some pretty wicked Gears of War spots using the Unreal Engine as a renderer.

Always nice to have a good, constructive disucssion around technology on these forums
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:50 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakkoii
Your argument would basically mean you shouldn't be wanting to support any of Apple's propriety software either, which they have a lot of.


No, thatís not at all what Iíve been arguing. When Iím talking about my dislike for DX itís in relation to the topic of this thread. I wouldíve thought thatís pretty clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakkoii
Operating systems need at least SOME proprietary software, they need to give consumers reasons to buy their software over the opponents.


Letís not muddy the waters here. We are talking about Maya. An application written by a 3rd party developer thatís designed, developed and marketed for 3 different platforms. As a paying customer I donít want to be funding proprietary technologies Iíll never be able to use. Iím sure youíd feel likewise if the shoe was on the other foot. I donít begrudge anyone their special tools, I just donít want to be floating their bill.

If this is to be an ongoing development effort, I would suggest Autodesk look towards Luxology and how they offer optional, specialized extensions to modo. Like for instance their 'CAD loaderí. Also aimed at a huge market (even bigger than games Iím guessing). But still, not everybody has need for it. Those that do have the option to purchase and for the rest the added cost is spared. Perfect solution, keeps everybody happy.
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:26 AM   #55
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As long as we don't get pure black shaders and blurry textures with this new tech I'm happy like we currently get with VP1.

I know it you're probably bound by some sort of NDA, but will this be extended outside of DX specific shaders in the viewport?

It would be unreal to get a good representation of mental ray and V-Ray and any other renderer materials. Imagine lighting a scene with exposure and shaders to get 70% there....before rendering.

Realtime SSS with VRayFastSS2!

Would be rapid improvement in workflow.
 
Old 08-08-2012, 03:30 PM   #56
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Shawn - am I misunderstanding this as being a "write your own DX shaders and have them shown in Maya" technology? It's not akin to Nitrous for Maya, is it? Will the DX11 viewport be a mental ray or API-accessible viewport or simply meant for game developers (what I thought).

I'd be pretty pissed off if viewport 2 was being under-developed because it was easier to bring this stuff from Max or Softimage code you already wrote. That would mean Linux and Mac users were subsidizing features they can't use. Autodesk does enough lazy porting already - that's basically why every app gets a viewcube - but I can only see this being excusable if this is game-development oriented, where admittedly (with the exception of Unity) 99% of the development is done on Windows. I can only pay subscription updates for so long and not get half the big-bullet features.

Last edited by cgbeige : 08-08-2012 at 03:34 PM.
 
Old 08-08-2012, 03:46 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgbeige
I'd be pretty pissed off if viewport 2 was being under-developed because it was easier to bring this stuff from Max or Softimage code you already wrote. That would mean Linux and Mac users were subsidizing features they can't use. Autodesk does enough lazy porting already - that's basically why every app gets a viewcube - but I can only see this being excusable if this is game-development oriented, where admittedly (with the exception of Unity) 99% of the development is done on Windows. I can only pay subscription updates for so long and not get half the big-bullet features.


I have a feeling that it is going to be exactly that: write your own DX11 shaders. I don't see it utilizing either MR or VRay shaders. That's a very good point. We can't utilize VP2 in our work as it crashes Maya literally every time. Not sure if it's the type of data we use, but if what you wrote may in fact be true then I would be very, very pissed.
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Old 08-08-2012, 07:54 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgbeige
I'd be pretty pissed off if viewport 2 was being under-developed because it was easier to bring this stuff from Max or Softimage code you already wrote.


That is exactly what we did. We just went into the 3dsMax code-base, selected all the text. Ctrl-C, then opened the Maya API, pressed CTRL-V. Done!

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Old 08-08-2012, 08:00 PM   #59
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I find it vastly amusing, the sense of entitlement, coming from users of other platforms who have chosen those platforms knowing the differences between all three. If you want DX tech, use Windows. If you don't, then don't. Considering the vast, vast majority of computers still run on Windows, it makes sense for companies creating software for Windows to put their priorities there.

And to be upset that "your money" isn't going towards the development of the features you want is just silly. All Windows-Maya users could say the exact same thing about there even being a Mac or Linux version. It's a null concept.

This isn't to say it's the BEST platform simply because it's the most popular. That's Apple's marketing campaign, not Microsoft's. Hey, you fell for it; not me.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:01 PM   #60
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kees - I didn't mean to say that it was that easy - just that Autodesk tends to do this a lot. As mentioned above, viewport 2 is still half baked and very unstable so this is kind of annoying to see a new viewport in the works (and drawing people like Lawrence away) so a new half-baked one can be developed. It's become the modus operandi that people are frustrated with.

InfernalDarkness - thanks for reminding me to not read your posts.

Last edited by cgbeige : 08-08-2012 at 08:04 PM.
 
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