Maya DirectX11 Technology Viewport

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Old 08 August 2012   #31
OpenGL is faster than DirectX, even on Windows. Not only that, it's multi-platform as well. Seeing as how Maya is a multi-platform application, one could reasonably expect ADSK to utilize multi-platform APIs.
 
Old 08 August 2012   #32
Originally Posted by onetime: OpenGL is faster than DirectX, even on Windows. Not only that, it's multi-platform as well. Seeing as how Maya is a multi-platform application, one could reasonably expect ADSK to utilize multi-platform APIs.


Very interesting article. Thank you for posting.
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Old 08 August 2012   #33
Originally Posted by THExDUKE: Touché



That this feature is only available for the Windows users?


That is a requirement of DirectX, not an Autodesk created requirement. There's nothing they can do about supporting DirectX on other platforms.

Originally Posted by DutchDimension: I find it lame in the sense that they could have opted to work on many, many other things that aren't platform specific. Finish VP2.0 for example, before starting on yet another offspring project. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Well, considering Softimage has had DX and OpenGL shader support in it for the longest time, I would think they could utilize a lot of the experience from when that was implemented, to make this implementation happen a lot smoother and easier, regardless of the fact they are different applications.

Whose to say they aren't improving VP 2.0? We've already heard news about work being done on it. This is just a SAP update, not the next version of Maya. They'll probably support OpenGL shaders in the future as well, it's just a matter of what's most important, which would be DX by a landslide. If they implemented OpenGL instead of DX first, DX is still needed/wanted, due to majority game industry penetration. It's not one choice being better than the other, but both choices being needed and choosing which one is more important to get implemented.
Studios are their biggest market, not freelancers with Macbooks or a dedication to OpenGL.

Originally Posted by onetime: OpenGL is faster than DirectX, even on Windows. Not only that, it's multi-platform as well. Seeing as how Maya is a multi-platform application, one could reasonably expect ADSK to utilize multi-platform APIs.

This article is about a 3 year old game, that has now been ported and had a lot of optimization done to it. It has little factual merit to it, since it's working on the assumption that the DirectX version was perfectly optimized. And, my good man John Carmack tends to disagree with that as well. He constantly states that he believes DirectX to be better than OpenGL these days. He even said it in his QuakeCon keynote last week. And I'd trust his word on such things a lot more than I would Valve's Linux programming team.
 
Old 08 August 2012   #34
Originally Posted by Kakkoii: That is a requirement of DirectX, not an Autodesk created requirement. There's nothing they can do about supporting DirectX on other platforms.


Yes, and still Autodesk decided to use technology only available on one platform when Maya is available on 3 OS's

Originally Posted by Kakkoii: Studios are their biggest market, not freelancers with Macbooks or a dedication to OpenGL.


So why use DirectX and alienate a large market share of Linux users?
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Old 08 August 2012   #35
Originally Posted by coldside-digital:
So why use DirectX and alienate a large market share of Linux users?


I wouldn't imagine it to be compulsory, just optional.
 
Old 08 August 2012   #36
Originally Posted by Kakkoii: Whose to say they aren't improving VP 2.0?

You'd hope so. Because it's not finished. Even after what... 2-3 years... there's still a lot that doesn't work with it. I can't use it at all in my pipeline because it can't display many of the geometries and shader networks that I heavily rely on.

Originally Posted by Kakkoii: Studios are their biggest market, not freelancers with Macbooks or a dedication to OpenGL.


You are conveniently forgetting the VFX industry. Where by and large the main choice of software is Maya on Linux.

I'm not one to begrudge my gaming artist brethren their tools, but this is one feature that would have been better left to 3rd party developers in my opinion. Or at the very least put on the back burner until such time that VP2.0 can be considered "complete".
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Old 08 August 2012   #37
Originally Posted by Kakkoii: That is a requirement of DirectX, not an Autodesk created requirement. There's nothing they can do about supporting DirectX on other platforms.


Well, considering Softimage has had DX and OpenGL shader support in it for the longest time, I would think they could utilize a lot of the experience from when that was implemented, to make this implementation happen a lot smoother and easier, regardless of the fact they are different applications.

Whose to say they aren't improving VP 2.0? We've already heard news about work being done on it. This is just a SAP update, not the next version of Maya. They'll probably support OpenGL shaders in the future as well, it's just a matter of what's most important, which would be DX by a landslide. If they implemented OpenGL instead of DX first, DX is still needed/wanted, due to majority game industry penetration. It's not one choice being better than the other, but both choices being needed and choosing which one is more important to get implemented.
Studios are their biggest market, not freelancers with Macbooks or a dedication to OpenGL.


This article is about a 3 year old game, that has now been ported and had a lot of optimization done to it. It has little factual merit to it, since it's working on the assumption that the DirectX version was perfectly optimized. And, my good man John Carmack tends to disagree with that as well. He constantly states that he believes DirectX to be better than OpenGL these days. He even said it in his QuakeCon keynote last week. And I'd trust his word on such things a lot more than I would Valve's Linux programming team.


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Old 08 August 2012   #38
Originally Posted by DutchDimension: I find it lame in the sense that they could have opted to work on many, many other things that aren't platform specific.

The nature of adding features means that developers will always be prioritizing one set of users' needs over another. In this case, it seems infinitely more productive to look at the DX11 viewport as a feature intended to support game studios (just as nHair, for example, was arguably more VFX-friendly, or at least not for game devs). The limited OS availability is a byproduct of the target audience, not a feature goal itself.
 
Old 08 August 2012   #39
Originally Posted by jipe: The nature of adding features means that developers will always be prioritizing one set of users' needs over another. In this case, it seems infinitely more productive to look at the DX11 viewport as a feature intended to support game studios (just as nHair, for example, was arguably more VFX-friendly, or at least not for game devs). The limited OS availability is a byproduct of the target audience, not a feature goal itself.


The comparison to nHair is flawed. nHair is a feature directly accessible to all Maya users regardless of their choice of platform. Wether a technology is useful to an artist or not is another matter entirely and is not the point of contention here.

Furthermore, 'infinitely more productive'? A bit extreme don't you think?
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Old 08 August 2012   #40
Originally Posted by Kakkoii: This article is about a 3 year old game, that has now been ported and had a lot of optimization done to it. It has little factual merit to it, since it's working on the assumption that the DirectX version was perfectly optimized.
Excellent point. That article is pretty light on specifics of which versions of each API they used in their test. I just wanted to point out that perhaps OpenGL will have some heavy hitters in their corner soon. Healthy competition is always a good thing. I'd certainly like to see an unbiased comparisons of the latest versions though. That being said, it doesn't seem right that Mac and Linux licenses cost the same as a Windows license, even though the feature set is not entirely cross-platform.
 
Old 08 August 2012   #41
I would like to see the hardware tessellation preview added to the OpenGL viewport 2. I understand that this is more for game developers who until now had to roll their own plug-in for something like this but you can get displacement tessellation previews in OpenGL 3.2, which is available on all platforms that Maya runs on.
 
Old 08 August 2012   #42
Originally Posted by coldside-digital: Yes, and still Autodesk decided to use technology only available on one platform when Maya is available on 3 OS's

So why use DirectX and alienate a large market share of Linux users?


How does this alienate users? As you pointed out Maya is on 3 platforms and as such we have three rather unique sets of people we need to keep happy and develop features for. Lots of software goes through this, look at Houdini and OpenCL - currently there is no Mac support for OpenCL accelerated objects but it works on Linux/Windows. Unity showed off DirectX 11 in Unity 4 and it's also Windows only and they have an extremely large Mac userbase.

We haven't forgotten our Linux and Mac folks (ask Danny or Dave.. I'm a mac user myself)

-s
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Last edited by BoostAbuse : 08 August 2012 at 04:46 PM.
 
Old 08 August 2012   #43
Originally Posted by BoostAbuse: How does this alienate users? As you pointed out Maya is on 3 platforms and as such we have three rather unique sets of people we need to keep happy and develop features for. Lots of software goes through this, look at Houdini and OpenCL - currently there is no Mac support for OpenCL accelerated objects but it works on Linux/Windows. Unity showed off DirectX 11 in Unity 4 and it's also Windows only and they have an extremely large Mac userbase.

We haven't forgotten our Linux and Mac folks (ask Danny or Dave.. I'm a mac user myself)

-s


Just never been a fan of DX and seeing it vie for development time with VP2.0 is hard to take. Especially considering the ongoing difficulties I'm having with the latter. But I trust your take on this Shawn, so I'll bide my time.

How's that new Retina MBP working out for you? I'm holding out for a new Mac Pro myself... whenever Apple decides to through us Pro users a bone.
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Old 08 August 2012   #44
(opinion) I think that considering the latest (Nvidia) DX11 graphics cards stink to high heaven for compute performance, having a native Maya DX11 viewport would be very beneficial to many users. Sure, the Linux and Mac communities "get none". I won't state the obvious correlation there, as Boost's love life is none of my business! (grins) But on the other side of the coin, Windows users are about to "get shafted" with Win8 if they choose to go that route, science forbid. I'd likely switch to another platform myself (or quit my job) if it was proposed that Metro was an acceptable solution for my work. (end opinion)

(thinking statements) But consider the possibility that the Geforce 600-series may run better in DX11 mode than in OpenCL, and this latest Maya tech becomes a little more important. This is just speculation - Viewport 2 already works very well on the 500-series, but still there are many limitations, most especially in polygon limits which haven't really changed much over the years, despite GPUs and CPUs becoming vastly more powerful.

If the DX11 viewport can push 50M polys better than the OpenCL viewport, it seems obvious this would be beneficial to many users. I guess I'd like to see a comparison, using a gaming card as opposed to a pro card, Nvidia vs. AMD, etc. (end thinking!)
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Old 08 August 2012   #45
Originally Posted by DutchDimension: Just never been a fan of DX and seeing it vie for development time with VP2.0 is hard to take. Especially considering the ongoing difficulties I'm having with the latter. But I trust your take on this Shawn, so I'll bide my time.

How's that new Retina MBP working out for you? I'm holding out for a new Mac Pro myself... whenever Apple decides to through us Pro users a bone.


You're a gamer though right? Look at where the games industry is heading - DX11 has been around for some time and you've got places like Crytek, DICE, Epic all pushing it and geniuses like John Carmack finding even more ways to push hardware to the limits. I spent many years in the games industry and the biggest disconnect is the fact you're basically in an environment that looks or represents nothing of your final target. That said I hear the Linux/Mac folks saying the same thing that they want the OpenGL 4.0 stuff and all these screen space effects as well so they too can iterate faster with something more representative of their final deliverable. You know I've got your back

It's bloody superb. I just received my Lacie 1TB Little Big Disk and have it setup as a two drive unit with dual 512gb SSD's so I can have projects/photos on one HFS partition and my games and large scene files on my NTFS drive (only carved out 40gb for Bootcamp).

Originally Posted by InfernalDarkness: (opinion) I think that considering the latest (Nvidia) DX11 graphics cards stink to high heaven for compute performance, having a native Maya DX11 viewport would be very beneficial to many users. Sure, the Linux and Mac communities "get none". I won't state the obvious correlation there, as Boost's love life is none of my business! (grins) But on the other side of the coin, Windows users are about to "get shafted" with Win8 if they choose to go that route, science forbid. I'd likely switch to another platform myself (or quit my job) if it was proposed that Metro was an acceptable solution for my work. (end opinion)


Hey now I love my Mac but I'm still a Windows user as a gamer As for Windows 8 it's not like anyone is forcing the hand to upgrade to it so if it doesn't work out in favour of professionals or gamers then it'll just be like folks sticking with XP when Vista came out.

Originally Posted by InfernalDarkness: If the DX11 viewport can push 50M polys better than the OpenCL viewport, it seems obvious this would be beneficial to many users. I guess I'd like to see a comparison, using a gaming card as opposed to a pro card, Nvidia vs. AMD, etc. (end thinking!)


The consumer level cards are super fast in the DX11 viewport. I have a GTX580 and it just takes off like a dog who has been let out with the fence door wide open mostly due to the fact it's doing the processing within its native driver environment that it's tuned for.

A video showing some of the features of the DX11 Shader: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlMuQYgnKm4

Hopefully some of our other guys will post up some movies using the Turtle Barbarian Jesse did in Mudbox as it shows the awesome stuff you can really push.
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