CGTalk > Software > Autodesk Maya
Login register
Thread Closed share thread « Previous Thread | Next Thread »
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-09-2012, 09:20 AM   #1
hellspawned
Know-it-All
Tomas Landberg
Huddinge, Sweden
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 430
Wineglass getting shattered by bullet in slow-mo?

I've tried to get this concept into motion for several days now, but I just can't seem to. Many hours of research and trying every conceivable shatter and destruction plugin, and I'm still drawing a blank as to how to visualize this. I need a new method, in short.

So, how should I go about producing this effect?
 
Old 07-09-2012, 11:25 AM   #2
Schempp
Know-it-All
portfolio
Eric Schempp
Stockholm, Sweden
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 323
is it the shattering itself that you dont get to work or just the case that it should be in slowmo?
__________________
Voxels for dinner.
_____________
http://esvfx.wordpress.com/ maya vfx blog
 
Old 07-09-2012, 12:43 PM   #3
tobbew
Know-it-All
Torbjörn
Sweden
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 434
when you have a dynamic shatter that you are satisfied with just increase framerate (or bake and scale the keytiming)
 
Old 07-09-2012, 03:44 PM   #4
hellspawned
Know-it-All
Tomas Landberg
Huddinge, Sweden
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schempp
is it the shattering itself that you dont get to work or just the case that it should be in slowmo?


WARNING! Long post.

In DMM, there are quite a few things I can't seem to get to work. Most importantly, the fracture map I've created in it works, kinda. "Kinda", in the sense that it leaves holes in my simulation mesh that shouldn't be there. Another thing is that I can't seem to successfully attach a more detailed surface mesh to my simulation either, but that's beside the point. Then there's the part where it doesn't seem to have a time scale setting, and no way of baking a finished animation to keyframes. So DMM is out of question, pretty much.

I also tried PullDownIt, but the realism I got in my test simulations were very poor - There's probably some trick to getting its sims to look realistic, but I haven't found it.

Another problem with most shatter plugins is that this is glass I'm shattering. The cracks are visible through the glass even before the bullet impacts it. Since it's slow motion as well, I'll need the cracking to be gradual - At first, the tip of the bullet pierces the glass, causing a small hole with cracks around it, then comes the pressure wave from the bullet displacing the air, spreading the cracks outwards and pushing pieces away - I can't just have a non-cracked glass then switch over to the cracked glass at the point of impact. It requires a solution which which spawns cracks dynamically, rather than pre-cracking the object.

I suppose I could make the scene in several stages (one for the non-cracked glass, one for the first impact, and then another for the rest of the glass) but that would mean massive amounts of manual, painstaking labour on my part, and I'm not sure if it would be possible to get a somewhat realistic result from it either.

I've tried and gotten promising results from Blastcode, and it simulates like a dream compared to other destruction engines I've tried. The problem is that it costs redonculous amounts of money for someone in my position, way too much to warrant a purchase for a hobbyist/student like myself at this point in time. The demo, while a good intro to the plugin, is so limited that it doesn't lend itself to anything more advanced than cracking a pillar, a wall or a few dominoes.

So, I'm left wondering if there's a solution one could try with Mayas native tools. I've got a bunch of different plugins to make nice cracks, but no way I know of to make it dynamic and simulate it in any sort of nice way - I find the native rigid body solver horrible to work with.
 
Old 07-09-2012, 08:19 PM   #5
mlager8
Lord of the posts
 
mlager8's Avatar
portfolio
Matthew Lager
3D artist
Oceanside, USA
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 875
I dont really know of any plugin that does not deal with pre shattered geometry to some extent. I think to take care of that your just going to have to do some good ol' masking. I havent used pdi much but I've seen some pretty good results from it. I think the problem of unrealism your seeing is the same with most voronoi based shatter solutions. To achieve better realism you need to do add secondary debris passes with particles to get that small particulate matter that I'm sure is missing. Also try sub shatter some sections more than others. The impact point should be much smaller shards that the sides where the bullet is not actually passing through. The breakup of uniformity will lend its self better to realism.
__________________

 
Old 07-09-2012, 09:36 PM   #6
gmask
Obfuscator
 
gmask's Avatar
gmask
Power Sitting
Topanga, USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,937
use Houdini instead :-)

Seriously though this is the kind of thing that maya really sucks at. Especially trying to do it in slomo.

But the one bit of advice I'd give is to try to break the effect down into manageable sections. For example have a shatter that breaks it into the larger pieces. Then in turn perform a shattering on those chunks... one chunk at a time.

Also I'd consider using nParticles for the collisions of the small bits and just constrain them to the nparticles. Doing an actual rigid body dynamic sim for this number of the objects in maya is ridiculous.
__________________
blah blah blah
 
Old 07-09-2012, 09:42 PM   #7
hellspawned
Know-it-All
Tomas Landberg
Huddinge, Sweden
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlager8
I dont really know of any plugin that does not deal with pre shattered geometry to some extent. I think to take care of that your just going to have to do some good ol' masking. I havent used pdi much but I've seen some pretty good results from it. I think the problem of unrealism your seeing is the same with most voronoi based shatter solutions. To achieve better realism you need to do add secondary debris passes with particles to get that small particulate matter that I'm sure is missing. Also try sub shatter some sections more than others. The impact point should be much smaller shards that the sides where the bullet is not actually passing through. The breakup of uniformity will lend its self better to realism.


I guess that doing it in several layers is my way out, yes.

Question, on that note: Do you know of any shatter plugin which allows for very localized shatters? Like, if I wanted to make the first shatter stage, where the bullet has just passed through the glass, I would wanna have most of the glass intact. With the shatter plugins I've tried, they seem to only do entire objects - And with those, isolating a smaller part of the glass from the rest, to shatter and then try to weld a bunch of the pieces back to the intact glass seems to be the only option, and that's a lot of manual work that I wouldn't mind avoiding if there are tools for that
 
Old 07-09-2012, 09:45 PM   #8
hellspawned
Know-it-All
Tomas Landberg
Huddinge, Sweden
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmask
use Houdini instead :-)

Seriously though this is the kind of thing that maya really sucks at. Especially trying to do it in slomo.

But the one bit of advice I'd give is to try to break the effect down into manageable sections. For example have a shatter that breaks it into the larger pieces. Then in turn perform a shattering on those chunks... one chunk at a time.

Also I'd consider using nParticles for the collisions of the small bits and just constrain them to the nparticles. Doing an actual rigid body dynamic sim for this number of the objects in maya is ridiculous.


I've been sending some lustful glares towards Houdini, yes. Might be worth looking into, in the end :P

I think you misunderstand me - It's not the shatter in itself that is not working out (if i preshatter the glass), it's the fact that if I preshatter it I would have to make the animation in several stages, and I'm not confident that I would be able to keep it consistent between these different stages, see.
 
Old 07-09-2012, 10:32 PM   #9
mlager8
Lord of the posts
 
mlager8's Avatar
portfolio
Matthew Lager
3D artist
Oceanside, USA
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellspawned
Do you know of any shatter plugin which allows for very localized shatters?


I know ruins can define how many shads you want, then you can pick one of the shards and divide again and again as much as needed.

Also have a look at this script, I've used it before in conjunction with dynamica for some shatter stuff.

You emit particles from the object for a second or so. The script then puts a locator at each particles location, then shatters the object based on the locators. Alternatively you can just place a few locators where you want for a first pass shatter, then emit from individual shards and shatter those into smaller pieces as needed. Best of all.. it free
__________________

 
Old 07-10-2012, 06:05 AM   #10
Schempp
Know-it-All
portfolio
Eric Schempp
Stockholm, Sweden
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 323
If you visit My blog you can read a little about shattering with ncloth. You might be Able to paint maps for deciding were to break The object and animate those maps?
__________________
Voxels for dinner.
_____________
http://esvfx.wordpress.com/ maya vfx blog
 
Old 07-10-2012, 07:00 AM   #11
refract
Expert
 
refract's Avatar
portfolio
John John
Character modeling, Lighting, Compositing
Work
Los Angeles, United States
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 714
Send a message via ICQ to refract Send a message via AIM to refract Send a message via MSN to refract Send a message via Yahoo to refract
 
Old 07-10-2012, 07:51 AM   #12
ristopuukko
Earthling
 
ristopuukko's Avatar
portfolio
Risto Puukko
Senior fx td
FrameStore
London, United%2BKingdom
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 812
Hi hellspawned

well the real deal is that you have to do the cracking in stages (as someone mentioned before, I believe) and animate the "bigger" geometry's visibility to zero when you need new, smaller shards.
At that same time/frame you copy the breaking shards rigidbody's velocity into emerging shard's initial velocities.
And that's how you go on with doing your simulation, bit by bit.

If you're able to script, you can automate this to a point, but if you can
afford to put even a bit of money, contact these guys:

http://www.fracture-fx.com

The best procedural breaking-stuff-and-go - tool in the market.

/risto
__________________
- Oh no, it's me -
 
Old 07-12-2012, 12:16 PM   #13
DynamicBoy
Frequenter
 
DynamicBoy's Avatar
portfolio
carlos perez garcia
thinkinetic
madrid, ES
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 255
Here an example of wineglass shattering with Pulldownit by Luis Tejeda, not me.



https://vimeo.com/groups/110841/videos/26436091


With transparent materials there are two options for hidding fragments until impact.

- You can animate the RGB transparency of Pdi cut material to make it invisible until impact, you can even gradually enable visibility for single cut faces, although this can be quite cumbersome.

- Replace the solid object for the shattered one in postpro, this is the easiest way and you can get good results, this video is done with this method.

hope this help you
 
Old 07-18-2012, 05:33 AM   #14
fizzbin
Veteran
portfolio
Vik Sohal
Co-Founder
Pixelux Entertainment
San Jose, USA
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 93
DMM Glass shattering

Hi,

You can change the timescale by altering the fps setting in Maya. Look in the Maya Preferences box under Settings. You can set the "Time" value high to get a large number of fps and then play them back at normal frame rates to do slow motion.

Not sure why you can't attach a detailed surface mesh, we have extensive stuff do do that. The face issue is a problem because of the way Maya caches. If you selection show inner faces on the mesh only when you are fracturing, you can get by without that issue. Many of our film customers use our API version and have all that stuff worked out.

I doubt moving to Houdini will help your problem. Houdini is nice, but I think you will find you are trading one set of issues for another.

Rigid body systems don't flex at all before they break, so that's why everything like this that is done with them looks fake. Our customers use DMM even on projects where they have to deal with rigid stuff like stone and glass because of the way our contact model works (not straight penalty method) as well as the way we flex before breaking.

The most impressive work I have seen done with DMM and glass/water stuff is this:
DMM Wineglass shattering with Naiad fluid sim

You might try contacting Paolo and asking how he did it.

Cheers,
Vik

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellspawned
WARNING! Long post.

In DMM, there are quite a few things I can't seem to get to work. Most importantly, the fracture map I've created in it works, kinda. "Kinda", in the sense that it leaves holes in my simulation mesh that shouldn't be there. Another thing is that I can't seem to successfully attach a more detailed surface mesh to my simulation either, but that's beside the point. Then there's the part where it doesn't seem to have a time scale setting, and no way of baking a finished animation to keyframes. So DMM is out of question, pretty much.

I also tried PullDownIt, but the realism I got in my test simulations were very poor - There's probably some trick to getting its sims to look realistic, but I haven't found it.

Another problem with most shatter plugins is that this is glass I'm shattering. The cracks are visible through the glass even before the bullet impacts it. Since it's slow motion as well, I'll need the cracking to be gradual - At first, the tip of the bullet pierces the glass, causing a small hole with cracks around it, then comes the pressure wave from the bullet displacing the air, spreading the cracks outwards and pushing pieces away - I can't just have a non-cracked glass then switch over to the cracked glass at the point of impact. It requires a solution which which spawns cracks dynamically, rather than pre-cracking the object.

I suppose I could make the scene in several stages (one for the non-cracked glass, one for the first impact, and then another for the rest of the glass) but that would mean massive amounts of manual, painstaking labour on my part, and I'm not sure if it would be possible to get a somewhat realistic result from it either.

I've tried and gotten promising results from Blastcode, and it simulates like a dream compared to other destruction engines I've tried. The problem is that it costs redonculous amounts of money for someone in my position, way too much to warrant a purchase for a hobbyist/student like myself at this point in time. The demo, while a good intro to the plugin, is so limited that it doesn't lend itself to anything more advanced than cracking a pillar, a wall or a few dominoes.

So, I'm left wondering if there's a solution one could try with Mayas native tools. I've got a bunch of different plugins to make nice cracks, but no way I know of to make it dynamic and simulate it in any sort of nice way - I find the native rigid body solver horrible to work with.
 
Old 07-18-2012, 06:45 AM   #15
stooch
Lord of the posts
 
stooch's Avatar
portfolio
Dimitri Loginowski
VFX Artist + Designer
Handsome, LLC
Beverly Hills, USA
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,029
Send a message via AIM to stooch
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzbin
The most impressive work I have seen done with DMM and glass/water stuff is this:
DMM Wineglass shattering with Naiad fluid sim
Vik


lol... sorry. not making much of a case for using DMM. i think what makes that sim impressive is the fluid sim, not the HBD solve.
__________________
From Russia, with love @ stooch.tv
 
Thread Closed share thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.