Outliner 2.0 Scene Management tool

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Old 04 April 2010   #31
I know that Outliner is not The Onion, but The Onion has a lot of useful tool and workflow is very efficient. I remember that this tool was write by Blur studio. Outliner is an amazing tool. First, IT'S FAST! And it's a script! Onion with 30 layer will be extreme slow :( . And it's not only a LM. In the Outliner we can groping, link, material etc.. But in the Layer manager section, The Onion (SLOW and we can't nasty layers, only one group) is more flexible and the way how The Onion (Fangorn or zookeeper) works with the layer is intelligent for artist. In one UI you have all you need. Just click, right click + ALT+CTRL + SHIF. Ok, I admin, I love shortcut and compact UI, like, for example, in the old PB interface.

About beta, sorry, but I don't have the time. I'm beta for chaos (VRay, VRay-Rt and Phoenix). Another plug? Yes, when my days will be 48 hours .
Francesco Legrenzi

Last edited by cecofuli : 04 April 2010 at 02:57 PM.
Old 04 April 2010   #32
I've just tried out the new Outliner 2.0. I think it's really great and easy to use! Wonderful job! I also like how it works together smoothly with the Max layer system. It could be a real alternative to my own character management tool I've written. Autodesk should really take a leaf out of your book.

Btw I can't agree with the critics from cecofuli and I really hate The Onion ;-)
My Demoreel 2011:

Last edited by Gräck : 04 April 2010 at 03:07 PM.
Old 04 April 2010   #33
You know you could've used outliner beta when you were testing vray beta

The beta phase was a "feature request" kinda phase also. So if you were there to say a few words now we would have a better outliner now
It is a poor artist who blames his tools for his work.

- Jeremy Birn
Old 04 April 2010   #34
@DarkNemos: to be fair to cecofuli, he did put in a number of suggestions in the previous thread, which were -if I recall correctly- along the same lines.

Anyway, it should never be too late to have a critical look at a product, and I appreciate all feedback. If anything, it forces you take step back and look at what you've made, and check whether it turned out to be what you wanted it to be.

Originally Posted by cecofuli: (*) Of corse, yes . In this video


At 7min and 21sec, see how the children and parent spheres are hide. You can have a parent hide, but you can play with the children visibility in one click. The rest of the children are hide. In the ioutliner you don't have the same independence. Anyway, tha same concept are in my TheOnion video. You can hide, unhide the entire group or a single layer just one click.
What I see there is still default behavior, unless I'm very much mistaken. They don't show what happens if the layer or layer group is hidden, and you unhide a child. I'd find it rather confusing if you could unhide a child layer or object while the parent layer is hidden.

Originally Posted by cecofuli: (*) In this video


you can see the autoexpand mode. Now in the Outliner, if I expand, i see all layer, sub-layer but also all obj. If I've a 4.000 object... wow! The LM UI will be very long. In the LM will be useful if I have the ability to see only the layer name, not the object inside. And yes, fangor and onion only Layer name. This is a layer manager. But if it's not difficult to implement in outliner ehehe ...
Aha I understand what you mean now: seeing only the layer nodes, not object nodes. Well, that's not going to change. One way of achieving it yourself could be to set a filter that filters out all object types. And enable/disable the filter when switching to/from the layer mode. Making a macroscript to do this switch should be easy enough too.

Quote: (*) In Outliner, if I click on the layer name... boom! All obj in the layer are selected. If in this layer I've 1.000 obj, my viewport will be creazy! In the onion if I click on the layer name, this affect only the visibility. If I want to select the obj inside, I've a second button. Very easy and convenient workflow. Layer manager IS at first place a layer manager, not a selection manager.
I guess this one really comes down to personal preference. I personally really like being able to select all objects on a layer with a single click. I used to hate having to press another button for that in the default Layer Manager.

Quote: (*) About the minimal, ok, it's personal opinion, but if I want a minimal UI, but all tools, button etc.. are hide inside 1-2-3 sub-menu and I must click 3 times my mouse, sorry, but I prefer less minimal but more pratical UI . See the "new layer button". Why every time I press my right mouse , found the sub-menu and finally click "new layer". This button will be in the first place. When I see any layer manager, like in Max, Maya, Fangor, TheOnion etc..., "create a new layer" and the most important button are in the main UI, not in sub-menu. This speed up my workflow.
My view on this is that the Outliner can provide a minimum of buttons that are constantly visible, so as not to clog up the UI with buttons you may never use. The more space for the treeview, and the cleaner it looks, the better. Max has a quite decent system for adding custom scripts and what not to toolbars. This will enable the user to show only the stuff he/she finds useful.
In the end, it's really a personal preference. If the Onion UI works for you, that's great, why not use it? If you prefer the Outliners approach, use the Outliner.
Old 04 April 2010   #35
Thanks Jonathan and Gregor, nice to hear you're enjoying it
Old 04 April 2010   #36
Ehhh... I would want a good layer manager because Onion is SLOW with a lot of layer (lots... >30..). Like bilion poly, +80 layer etc... I use a Layer manager 90% of my working time only for Hide, Unhide object for rendering test and organization, select objects in viewport and put its in a new layer. And I don't need every time i click on a layer, select all object. It's useless. And if the scene is big, like in most large urban-arch-viz project, all will be slow and this is a unnecessary behavior. The Onion, fangorn, Zookeeper, if you select the layer, they don't select all obj in the layer. The best is both solution. First, only select Layer, but not the objects inside. Second, if I select the layer, all object in the layer will be selected.

PS: If I spent my time write this suggestion to Pjanssen, is only because I think Outliner can will be a very good product .
Francesco Legrenzi

Last edited by cecofuli : 04 April 2010 at 07:20 PM.
Old 04 April 2010   #37
I guess that it should not be a problem to make that into an option. Then you can turn off selecting the objects in a layer when clicking it.
Old 04 April 2010   #38
Perfect and next two high features, in order, is

(1°) the hide-unhide parent/children behaviour like in the most Layer manager, without click all nasty layer.
(2°) the "selection problem" that you see in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HCQcRIn3k

Francesco Legrenzi
Old 04 April 2010   #39
cecofuli, you know that you can just middleclick drag in a new layer right? You dont have to rightclick that much.
Perhaps there are 2 things that can be done, improve outliner and change your habits.

Dont get me wrong, i am all for improvement, and have nothing against you, i just don't want to see a persons personal preference change the concept of the outliner. Just for the record, have you used maya-s outliner?
It is a poor artist who blames his tools for his work.

- Jeremy Birn
Old 04 April 2010   #40
@cecofuli: just something I noticed in your youtube clip: did you set the color scheme to "dark" at all? Maybe you prefer it this way, but when set to dark the text should be much more readable (i.e. near white).

Originally Posted by DarkNemos: i just don't want to see a persons personal preference change the concept of the outliner.
You don't have to worry about that. Well, other than my personal preference changing it
Old 04 April 2010   #41
Yes, but if you have 10 obj in one layer, 5 in another, 300 in another layer again, you simple select its (directly in the viewport, with scene manager, selection set) than go to your layer manager and click the button: "new layer from selection", without open all layer, select the objet, right click menu, scroll, click the "new layer from selection". The top is make a shortcut for this common task. Simply, no? Right now you can't. See my previous video.

Same if I want to change layer to some objects. Select in viewport (or another method), than click the button "add selection to current layer". Voilà! Fast, simply, no menu, no sub-menu, no extra mouse click. Like The Onion, Fangorn etc...
I think Maya outliner is not a complete, complex layer manager. I talk only about layer manager, my favourite tool in Outliner 2.0

I don't want change nothing, just add a simplify task for 3d artist work. Add new, extra-features not means change the software
Francesco Legrenzi

Last edited by cecofuli : 04 April 2010 at 08:29 PM.
Old 04 April 2010   #42
Much as I understand your point, I currently see no easy way of implementing this I'm afraid.
I mean adding objects to an existing layer. Adding objects to a new layer can easily be done by a macroscript, which I think would make a nice addition to the Workflow Tools.
I will however think about it, and see if I can come up with something.
Old 04 April 2010   #43
For sure Pjanssen. Mine is only some observation after10 years working in arch-viz product and... mmm.... 4 with The Onion
Someone will have different point of view. I think you will have a lot of wish-lish in future ehehe.... Layer manager in 3ds max is so bad... Quincksilver, nodejoe.. uff... 10 years of 3ds max and we don't have a decent layer manager... crazy
Francesco Legrenzi

Last edited by cecofuli : 04 April 2010 at 08:40 PM.
Old 04 April 2010   #44
Your ideas are definitely appreciated
Old 04 April 2010   #45
So far I have experienced a few crashes/errors, could not reproduce them yet unfortunately.

One bug I have noticed:

Each time you open/close the outliner, the position jumps up 1 pixel or so.
My Demoreel 2011:
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