Hair & Fur - Making Clumps Stay Clumped...?

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  11 November 2017
Hair & Fur - Making Clumps Stay Clumped...?

Suppose, for a moment, I'm trying to build a character with hair like this:

(For the record, that's not the character I'm building; I just needed some photo reference.)

You see that one strand falling over her nose,and to a lesser degree, the ones by her ears...? How do I accomplish that?
When I make Hair & Fur simulate, those strands spread out. I don't want 'em to; I want them to stay together. But I can't find, like, a hair gel or hair spray or perm function, or any other sort of staying-together method. Or, if there is, it's one of those things in MAX with a super counter-intuitive name; the Help files have been anything but helpful on that front.

Any help would be appreciated. And, for the record, I'm on MAX 2013; it's what I have, what I could afford. So if there is an option to make hair other than Hair & Fur, but it comes in a later version, I'm kind of out of luck on that front. Just to get that out in the open.
  11 November 2017
...or it's possible that the Help files are just badly organized; I may've found what I'm looking for.

No idea if it's gonna actually work; I'm just trying it now. But it was kind of counter-intuitive; it's one of those options that doesn't give you enough specific control over hair guides, so it's kind of a shot-in-the-dark whether I can make it do what I want.
  11 November 2017
What could help instead is to do multiple Hair and Fur objects, so you can have more specific control of groups. I also recommend as part of a workflow to retopologize the part of the head and make a nice "skull cap" mesh for the hair to grow off of, and you can then use the Viewport Canvas tool to paint on the mesh where you want the hair which you can plug in to the modifier. Also by doing that you can get a better distribution of hair guides since it only makes guides from the vertices of the growth mesh.
The Z-Axis
  11 November 2017
Quote: What could help instead is to do multiple Hair and Fur objects, so you can have more specific control of groups.

See, I thought about that, but I don't know why it would help. Won't the ends still fall away from each other?

As for groups, I have to admit, I don't really understand them. I mean, they don't seem to work in a similar fashion to, say, Mat IDs; you can't assign them numbers and individual parameters. And even if you could, I still don't see an option to say, ""These ends...? They stick together to form a pointy strand of hair."
And the MAX files are no help on that front; they're very vague. But even selecting either of the two possible options doesn't seem to accomplish my goal.

Quote: I also recommend as part of a workflow to retopologize the part of the head and make a nice "skull cap" mesh for the hair to grow off of

One of the very first things I did was to detach/copy the bit of the character model where the hair would come from, make it unrenderable (which, thankfully, didn't make the hair unrenderable) and then just parented it to the biped head.
I don't even want to think of the trouble I'd run into trying to do this from the character mesh! Egad!

Still, my main problem is getting the hair to maintain the shape into which I've put it, while still being able to react to head movement and such.
  11 November 2017
I mean you use multiple hair modifiers where they only control a section of the hair, so that one big clump of hair going over the face would be done with one modifier, that way it's not going to try and interpolate hair between that shape and the rest of the hair.
The Z-Axis
  11 November 2017
I understand that, but I still don't know how to keep the hair guides together at the ends. I mean, even if I use a separate piece, won't they still spread out?
The idea is to keep the hair strand pointy, with the ends more or less stuck together. But the guides always split apart and each does its own separate thing.
  11 November 2017
Here, this is what I'm talking about:

Starts out pointy, ends up all over the place.

But what I want is this:

So that, after simulation, those ends are still together, almost like the strand of hair is a hose or a rope or something.
  11 November 2017
here. play with this:!AvgNse7E8aaygx2zdkq1-k5pWYDh

01) in dynamics turn on Live, hit play
02) you see I have 5 clumps...could be just 1 in your case.
03) Clump Strength is at max 1.
04) Stiffness in Dynamics would keep the shape and not fly apart.
05) I would do this Hair as separate from your main head of hair...for control
(note: beware I've set my playback to 1/2 speed)

Last edited by vusta : 11 November 2017 at 06:34 AM.
  11 November 2017
I can't open it. I have MAX 2013, and it got a bit grumpy about the newer version this was saved in. Thanks, tho.

In my simulation, I have five clumps...both in the version where there is one piece for the entire head and in the just-a-tiny-piece version in the pictures on my earlier reply.

Also...doesn't the Stiffness setting make the hair less able to be flexible? I want it to be flexible, just more, hmm...cohesive is the best word I can think of.
It's sounding like I have to trade one problem for another.
  11 November 2017
prolly silly me changed the name but not actually change the format..

try this:!AvgNse7E8aaygx70QmBWmgSToJel
  11 November 2017
Ah, thanks.

One thing I can't help noticing is that yours seems to have a lot fewer guides than mine. Does that make a huge difference? Should I crank that waytheheck down?
Cuz if that's all this really is...I think I can make that work quite easily.
  11 November 2017
well one guide for one 'ponytail'....if you have multi's gonna try it's best to spread/interp between the guides which defeats the purpose
  11 November 2017
Well...that's what I've been doing wrong, then.

Thank you.
  11 November 2017
You need to style that section of hair in the shape that you want it to be and then mess with the simulation settings afterwards.
The Z-Axis
  11 November 2017
Nah, nah...I did that.

vusta gave me the hints I needed. Thanks.
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