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Old 03-19-2014, 01:43 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ice-boy

What a innovation, isn't it?
..and it's so important, that it must stand as the first point on the big "what's new" list

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazmondo
I was a bit disappointed that there was no 2015 video for Python, I'm interested to see how it's integrated and hopefully the documentation is better than it is for dotNET.

maybe it's 100% the same state as in extension pack
 
Old 03-19-2014, 01:48 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by jedie
What a innovation, isn't it?
..and it's so important, that it must stand as the first point on the big "what's new" list


As it seems the whole "Whats new" pdf was just a quick rushed job converting the usual "Whats new in Max xxxx" page from the documentation to a PDF .

This does hardly suffice as marketing material, which is what any new version announcement material really should be ... I really wonder what goes on in the heads of the Autodesk folks ( not the dev team ).

BTW: the pdf already has been updated to not contain so many blank pages, it's still meager because the number of features are not there, but well, at least more adequate
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:40 PM   #48
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Thanks for dropping in Ed. I was tweeting with Chris last night and will say the same thing here. I'm not surprised by this release since I know the recent changes in the Max team and the time it takes for the fruits of these changes to reflect in a real product release.

I'm not particular disappointed with the new features (just by the absence of OpenSubdiv which has the promise to fix all the UV distortion problems and allow for faster deforming meshes), but I'm going to stick around until the next two releases and see what's in for Max. Until then, hope all the best for you and your team - indeed very talented and capable people! And, as I also said to Chris Murray, if this Max team can't fix Max, no one can!

Nice way to put some weight in your shoulders, huh? But you're more than capable to deliver! And welcome to the Max community!
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Old 03-19-2014, 03:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by garryclarke
@mynewcat

Yes, I do use a lot of those features. I work in engineering visualisation (with a bit of FX thrown on top) and Point Clouds are getting used more and more often, (they have been in Max since the 2014 subscription package so hardly a new feature). And IGES export, you'd be surprised how often I'm asked for this. So it's me, I asked for it, and this time round I'm fairly happy, I also got nested layers, improvements to State Sets and more work done under the hood.

You see, just because you don't want a feature it dosn't mean that 'no one asked for it'.


Alright mate - are you done being patronising?

All those features you asked for - how high up the user voice list were they? - they clearly don't reflect what the Max community is asking for. Just like the stereo camera.

So when I say "no one" asked for them, I'm obviously using a figure of speech - since at least one person would have asked for them.

Do you know what a figure of speech is?
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Old 03-19-2014, 04:03 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Rudiam
@darthviper, First off, even though they've said it's a product agnostic tool and can be integrated into all their packages, I assume it still takes quite some time and man power to implement it, now considering that every job has priorities, did you rather have a fluid system before a better scene management tool? also the fact of the matter is that the requests about implementing a fluid sim tool has just(in the past month actually) reached a level officially in uservoice that they can and should react to, it just wasn't there before that(yes I know we made a lot of noise about it in the MU thread but they are - and understandably too - putting UserVoice as their go to channel for feature requests), so at this point I really hope people start to voice their needs in an official manner rather than in different sub forums.


Naiad/Bifrost was already integrated with 3ds Max, it would have been much easier to keep supporting that than it was for them to add support for Maya, which is what they're doing.



Thanks for commenting Eddie, I hope that you can turn things around, I know you haven't been around long enough to make changes that we can see in this release, but I hope you understand people's disappointment.
I think the thing I would most want is for an idea of what Autodesk has planned for 3ds Max---what does Autodesk want 3ds Max to be? What is the goal?
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Old 03-19-2014, 04:14 PM   #51
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How much do Autodesk charge these days for these "new versions"?

Am I right in thinking we now have 4 undo/buttons on screen?! Seriously this is probably the jokiest release I've seen and I've been using max since "R3". I was looking in to Modo recently and their MeshFusion tools made me VERY jealous.

Here are a list of REAL WORLD features that I personally could do with that I would give a crap about.
  • Better hair and fur modelling, with the option to make hair meshes like HairFarm.
  • Better (much better) booleans. Truly Non-destructive, stable, quick.
  • New Skin modifier, with options similar to BonesPro.
  • Better CAT functionality. Detachable tools like what Raylight Games are doing.
  • FLUIDS. At the very least a decent metaball solution.
  • Modernised scatter tools similar to what MultiScatter or ForestPack are doing.
  • A single unified UI.... Not modern ribbon, 20 year old command panel. "Ohh which side of my screen is that tool on?"
  • Updates to the retopology tools. The ability to effectively and predictably draw loops on a model and have them reliably bridge and create geometry.
  • More built in foliage?! Come on there are about 8 trees.
  • Better interaction with sister app Mudbox. A way to transfer and retain subdiv levels when using the "Send to Max" function. So that levels can be stepped up and down inside max/used only at render time.
  • Faster default particle systems. Sometimes us non VFX people still need to use simple things like Supersprays and they still run like absolute crap. Especially when using deflectors.
  • Ability to rotate/customise the material preview balls in the Slate editor.
  • Some kind of fracture tool.
  • Quad chamfer.... Oh wait.... This is the one new feature!!!
Seriously, that's just off the top of my head as I'm writing this.


At the moment it feels more than ever that 3ds max's future is arch viz. Autodesk send someone every year to reassure us all about how great or exciting things are looking for max, but where's the evidence?!

These people get paid to make sure we have hope of new and exciting features each year so we don't jump ship.
 
Old 03-19-2014, 06:11 PM   #52
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There are many things to celebrate today. I am making the rounds, interested in the comments. This is my first time posting here. For those that don't know me, I am the Product Manager for 3ds Max. You can find out more about me here .


Hi Eddie, yes we know you, thanks very much for participating.

Could you please help us to understand what is worth celebrating today? because from what we have seen it really doesn't look that way.

As you can see from the comments, everyone in the Max community seems to be disgruntled and everyone from the Maya community seems to be reasonably happy.

Is that because Max users, collectively, are a more unhappy bunch or do you think there may actually be a huge discrepancy in the breadth of features each software seems to have previewed this year?

Quote:
I wanted to thank many of you for your support and constructive criticism. As I hope I have demonstrated in other arenas, I will gladly discuss the future and success of 3ds Max in a professional manner, anytime, anywhere.


Except that you have said time and time again that you are constrained to Not talk about the future of 3DS Max because of a legal obligation because Autodesk is a publicly traded company.

When we say we want to know about Max's future, we don't want vague corporate reassurances that the the future is bright. We want specifici examples of how that is happening.

Is the future bright for Autodesk because Max fits in with it's corporate vision for a unified design infrastructure, or is it bright because all of us users will have a package that will enable them to have relevant skills ready to re-invest in different industries?

Clearly specifics are important in this case - and so therefore, why are we seeing stereo cameras and point clouds being added when those things do not reflect popularly requested features, but clearly do reflect a ciorporate strategy of making 3DS Max a tool aimed squarely at arc viz and design?


Quote:
I know that there is a silent majority that is rooting for the success of Autodesk and 3ds Max. Even for those that voice their opinion in a more hostile tone, I hope that in most instances, it is a display of passion and concern for this application we all know and love.


Obviously it is because we are passionate Max users whop have invested (some of us) nearly two decades in a skillset we are seeing steered further and further away from a direction we want it to go in.
Quote:
But, when there are reports that are blatantly false, I must set the record straight.


Hang on - this has no value, because even if what we are saying is incorrect, you couldn't tell the truth.

And I refer you to what has happened with Soft Image. The grumbling you are hearing isn't because we are an inherently aggressive bunch of people, it's because of a direct result of the recent events with Soft Image, and then this shambles of a sneak-preview.

I just want to make that point clear: the grumbling you are hearing is because we are being told that Max isn't being pigeon-holed into an arc design tool, yet every single ACTION taken by Autodesk affirms that very point.

Quote:
First, as I've stated elsewhere, recent decisions regarding the continued development of software titles at Autodesk are never easy. Nor are they sweeping. Software titles are evaluated on individually and do not reflect the entire portfolio or the other titles in it. 3ds Max is one of the top performers at Autodesk.


Well, firstly some better joined-up thinking might help.

Secondly, you say it's a top performer - in what way? can you elaborate on what areas Max excels in?

Quote:
Secondly, as Mark Twain is often misquoted, “the reports of my death are greatly exaggerated”. Again, I will point out all of the positive steps Autodesk has taken for 3ds Max. Growing the team in expertise and experience, focusing on the UserVoice and Charter advisory boards to make sure your voice is heard, streamlining the development process and returning those savings to R&D. All that and so much more. And the good news is that all of that hasn't even taken the field yet. From a software development aspect as well as a life aspect, these are exactly the steps I imagine you would take if the roles were reversed.


This sounds as if you are basically saying that you wash your hands of this release?

Because apart from quad chamfer and a nester layer manager (what I've been banging out about for years, personally) the fixes do not seem to reflect the user voice at all.

Quote:
Please don’t tell me you've heard it before. You didn't hear about Tom Hudson, Martin Coven, Jenni O’Conner, Nicholas Fonta, Sonja Muller and others you know and respect or are getting to know, coming together to join Kelcey Simpson, Mike Russo, Kelly Michels, Chris Young and Chris Bradshaw to make a better 3ds Max.


No, but we've heard about Excalibur, loads of reassurances that Max is a top performer etc. but then we are constantly stung with embarrassing releases that make us look like the poor step child to Maya.

I can't think of anything in this version that would make we want to have to go through the hassle of upgrading all my plugins, scripts, UIs etc on multiple machines. There are no killer tools.

All this release is making peple think - almost universally - is that the smart money is on retraining.

Think about that - this release has only made die-hard Max users think about retraining.

And you still haven't explained to us why we should be excited.

So I ask you again - simply based on the previews on Max versus Maya - why should I be more happy than a Maya user?



Quote:
That isn't speculation, these aren't empty promises, these are real, talented people committed to making a difference in your experience and what I call “proof”.


Well, they aren't kept promises either - and now apparently what you are saying is "wait until next year".

It's almost a tacit admission that this release of Max is a dud.

Quote:
Actually, I think I might be on to something. In the U.S., we are in the middle of college basketball tournaments or “March Madness”. Using the hashtag #maxmadness, twitter the software development steps you would recommend. Not features, that’s what UserVoice is for. I’m talking role reversal; you have the keys, steps you would take if you ran the candy store. I will read some of them during the Expert Challenge March 26th. It may win you a 3ds Max t-shirt. I will be posting this on other forums as well. But, let’s keep this professional. We’re doing this for the greater good.


That sounds patronising at this point to be honest.

It feels like you're saying that our opinions are invalid and purely emotional - when I think I've done a good job of explaining why I think we're unhappy.

I don't think you have done a very good explaining why we should be happy NOW - this cycle.

By the way - this is the first time I have ever gone off like this, I have always been patient, I have never bashed Autodesk or the devs or joined the hate train.

I just think you have a lot of people wondering where their subscription money is going, when almost everything this cycle is probably handled by scripts we already have, because we've been waiting so long for the problem to be solved.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:04 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mynewcat
Clearly specifics are important in this case - and so therefore, why are we seeing stereo cameras and point clouds being added when those things do not reflect popularly requested features, but clearly do reflect a ciorporate strategy of making 3DS Max a tool aimed squarely at arc viz and design?

Maybe it's the problem, that AD had three software products for overall the same thing. Oh, wait softimage is done... Next max?

What will be the profit-maximizing do with max and maya?

Is it profit-maximizing to develop max and maya in the same way? Two developer teams, but a customer will by only max **or** maya?

Or, maybe the strategy is to separate max from maya and/or vice versa. So we need both to have our needed all-round solution? We should all by the suites?

max 2014 was a release with less features. AD sayed they have focused on bugfixing and the unicode/multi-language support has costs many developer energy...

What's reason for the small 2015 release?
 
Old 03-19-2014, 08:27 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedie
What's reason for the small 2015 release?


'cause they're working hard on "SoftiMax 2016" to be ready next year.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:03 PM   #55
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Nope!
it's not "Softimax" .... it's "Maximage"
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:17 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mynewcat
Alright mate - are you done being patronising?

All those features you asked for - how high up the user voice list were they? - they clearly don't reflect what the Max community is asking for. Just like the stereo camera.

So when I say "no one" asked for them, I'm obviously using a figure of speech - since at least one person would have asked for them.

Do you know what a figure of speech is?


There is more to the 3dsmax community than CGTalk. Even the UserVoice only reflects a small portion of the max community. How do I know this? Because max has hundreds of thousands of installs, yet UserVoice entries number in the 10s or 100s of votes.

The only reason certain features get added to max is because the max community is asking for them. Autodesk reaches out to companies large and small asking what they need. They also respond to requests from these companies. These companies are the reason max has the large install base that it does, in more industries than just visual effects.
 
Old 03-19-2014, 11:45 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slebed
There is more to the 3dsmax community than CGTalk. Even the UserVoice only reflects a small portion of the max community. How do I know this? Because max has hundreds of thousands of installs, yet UserVoice entries number in the 10s or 100s of votes.

The only reason certain features get added to max is because the max community is asking for them. Autodesk reaches out to companies large and small asking what they need. They also respond to requests from these companies. These companies are the reason max has the large install base that it does, in more industries than just visual effects.


Ha.

If Autodesk asked me what I really wanted in the next release of max..... Fluids? Nope. Better Xreffing? Nope... Undoing the moving of the undo button? HELL YES!
 
Old 03-20-2014, 12:42 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by DrZenith
How much do Autodesk charge these days for these "new versions"?

Am I right in thinking we now have 4 undo/buttons on screen?! Seriously this is probably the jokiest release I've seen and I've been using max since "R3". I was looking in to Modo recently and their MeshFusion tools made me VERY jealous.

Here are a list of REAL WORLD features that I personally could do with that I would give a crap about.
  • Better hair and fur modelling, with the option to make hair meshes like HairFarm.
  • Better (much better) booleans. Truly Non-destructive, stable, quick.
  • New Skin modifier, with options similar to BonesPro.
  • Better CAT functionality. Detachable tools like what Raylight Games are doing.
  • FLUIDS. At the very least a decent metaball solution.
  • Modernised scatter tools similar to what MultiScatter or ForestPack are doing.
  • A single unified UI.... Not modern ribbon, 20 year old command panel. "Ohh which side of my screen is that tool on?"
  • Updates to the retopology tools. The ability to effectively and predictably draw loops on a model and have them reliably bridge and create geometry.
  • More built in foliage?! Come on there are about 8 trees.
  • Better interaction with sister app Mudbox. A way to transfer and retain subdiv levels when using the "Send to Max" function. So that levels can be stepped up and down inside max/used only at render time.
  • Faster default particle systems. Sometimes us non VFX people still need to use simple things like Supersprays and they still run like absolute crap. Especially when using deflectors.
  • Ability to rotate/customise the material preview balls in the Slate editor.
  • Some kind of fracture tool.
  • Quad chamfer.... Oh wait.... This is the one new feature!!!
Seriously, that's just off the top of my head as I'm writing this.


At the moment it feels more than ever that 3ds max's future is arch viz. Autodesk send someone every year to reassure us all about how great or exciting things are looking for max, but where's the evidence?!

These people get paid to make sure we have hope of new and exciting features each year so we don't jump ship.



its pretty weird that the skin weighting tools are so hard to use. looking at bones pro, man you would think they could implement something like that a long time ago. my last character took me two days to weight, vertex by vertex. i've seen about 10 tutorials on it and read the documentation. its just clunky as hell.
 
Old 03-20-2014, 01:30 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by KellyM
As mentioned before, Eddie came in not that long ago and a lot of things were already done. I can say that I am excited to what he is bringing to 3ds Max and a lot of users we are working with in our Charter group are just as excited.
They are excited about Maya getting a 2nd fluid system while Max gets Jack? Yes. I'm sure they are rather giddy about that.
 
Old 03-20-2014, 01:35 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by slebed
There is more to the 3dsmax community than CGTalk. Even the UserVoice only reflects a small portion of the max community. How do I know this? Because max has hundreds of thousands of installs, yet UserVoice entries number in the 10s or 100s of votes.

The only reason certain features get added to max is because the max community is asking for them. Autodesk reaches out to companies large and small asking what they need. They also respond to requests from these companies. These companies are the reason max has the large install base that it does, in more industries than just visual effects.
BS. Fluids/Smoke/Fire sim tools have been requested over and over. AD is just choosing which ones THEY want to add...not what is requested the most.
 
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