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Old 08-17-2013, 08:30 PM   #31
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Of course the end result is the most important thing, I guess the point being that the end result is not what we are all expecting. It leaves nothing but all of us confused.

Why bed down with nVidia then go oops, we have to play fair with everyone and now jump in the sack with AMD. Too many silly politics are dimming the light in the room to the point where everyone is bumping into each other instead of having polite conversation.


I suppose Agile development is good for mature applications but the thing is max is in only "finishing" up the first stage of 3 in XBR. That is redevelopment NOT maintenance and feature addition.
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:23 PM   #32
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I agree.

The other thing, and I've banged on about it before is they make a deal of interoperability between their apps.

My cynical head is that it's just to sell more seats of DCC apps duplicating functionality, and then they introduce a feature into Max (Populate) which doesn't even have any interop within Max itself.

6 years to incorporate something so limited is baffling, and if that's an indication of Max's future it's not a good sign.
 
Old 08-18-2013, 08:45 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyRandom

I suppose Agile development is good for mature applications but the thing is max is in only "finishing" up the first stage of 3 in XBR. That is redevelopment NOT maintenance and feature addition.


In the Tom Hudson thread (I think it was that one, or the future of max one) someone was saying that XBR is basically canceled. I remember in 2013 release (I want to say Ken but I'm not sure who) said that they just didn't have enough time to get the 'big' GUI update into that release, so I would have thought we'd see it in 2014. Just crossing my fingers that it's not a XSI style update.
 
Old 08-18-2013, 09:05 AM   #34
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I'm not sure why they had this big thing for updating the UI in the first place.

The excuse I hear given are that Ribbons are a Microsoft standard.

My answer to this, so was Vista, so is the Metro interface, so was removing the start button in windows 8.

Autodesk have want to unify UI elements across their DCC apps, hence the viewcube.

The problem here is Maya runs across more than one OS, I don't see how it's possible to reconcile look and feel when you've got one app on one OS, and another app on multiple OS.

The viewcube kind of thing just seems like a nod to this - unless you fully go for standardising terminology, menu layouts etc. as well.

At which point you wonder if time is better spent just concentrating on making the apps themselves better, not homogenising them.

It's a mess, and it's of their own making.
 
Old 08-18-2013, 10:00 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Green

It's a mess, and it's of their own making.


One thing I hate seeing in general these days is icons losing color. An icon without color might as well be a word, imho.

Not a fan of ribbons myself, I think they slow down my workflow. The first time I used office in years it took me a good 15 minutes to figure out how to print, embarrassing for me and for the design philosophy. I may be the only person who preferred polyboost interface to what we got. But I sure do. I've always felt that I don't need my app to be beautiful, what I make with it is what I want to be beautiful. I need my app to be fast, and the old school poly tools on the right side are great imho for this. Cluttered but easy to find things, I'm ok with that.
 
Old 08-18-2013, 01:30 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diffus3d
One thing I hate seeing in general these days is icons losing color. An icon without color might as well be a word, imho.

Not a fan of ribbons myself, I think they slow down my workflow. The first time I used office in years it took me a good 15 minutes to figure out how to print, embarrassing for me and for the design philosophy. I may be the only person who preferred polyboost interface to what we got. But I sure do. I've always felt that I don't need my app to be beautiful, what I make with it is what I want to be beautiful. I need my app to be fast, and the old school poly tools on the right side are great imho for this. Cluttered but easy to find things, I'm ok with that.


I agree. Polyboost did the job. Fast. Efficient. Although the graphite ribbon responsiveness has gotten better over the last 2 releases I rarely use it. The few tools I do use I have hotkey mapped.
The command panel and quad menus have everything I need. Plus the fact that we've all been using Max for so long that muscle-memory does most of the work. I really do love Max's UI layout. It's so much more inviting than the likes of Maya.
I really don't understand the mentality of a complete UI overhaul. Just look at the disaster, and eventual reversal - in the 'caddies off' checkbox - of the widely abhorred new caddy design.
If app interoperability is on the agenda then concentrate on data exchange, not UI similarities.
 
Old 08-18-2013, 03:51 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Green
6 years to incorporate something so limited is baffling, and if that's an indication of Max's future it's not a good sign.


Not trying to justify it(Since I've also seldom used it ever since upgrading), but I think(Though if I've learned anything about adsk, it's that there's no way one can speculate about what they will and won't do, considering how odd/inconsistent/biased their decision making process is), that they'll upgrade this tool over the course of the next few releases, case and point the stuff that Michael Girard demoed a while back about "Directional Character Animation"(which has been removed ever since btw), that seemed to fit very well inside this tool, but hey, it's autodesk we are talking about, so they'll probably convince Micheal Girard to implement it into Maya instead.

About Max's UI, I'm actually a big fan of the Ribbon and the direction it was going, but they seem to have abandoned that initiative, since they are reluctant to translate other geometry types settings to it, which is sad, honestly it's much more intuitive working with a HUD style panel with a well designed layout and colorful icons, rather than going up and down, and up again in a lifeless messy command panel, But here's the thing about Max's UI, while I too think it's much more organized and more elegant than that of Maya's, it's horribly INCONSISTENT, every component of the UI seem to be, and actually is a reminiscent of a different era, and the Enhance Menu System(while looking nice), didn't help this issue at all, I mean just look at Maya's UI, despite it's awful layout, is consistent as hell, every component can be torn apart and slickly re-docked somewhere else, very consistently and slick. They really don't seem to be wanting to go the QT's way, I don't mind it as long as they can come up with a comparable, consistent alternative, though QT would have been the way to go if the really had cross platform-ability in mind.

About these new upgrades, If you look at them through the eyes of a normal, non-technical user, then you'd be probably quite disappointed, since they really aren't going to help in your day to day work, but the bottom line is that they are actually 3 different new features and not improvement to existing tools, which is a welcome thing(if they are implemented correctly that is), now granted how silly the whole stereo cam system's situation is, and the fact that it's not a out of the box feature, but still.

About the Point Clouds, It would be nice if we could use it as a base in the retopology/freeform tools.

And I hope the Python implementation is a true unrestricted one and not a half baked limited implementation.

Last edited by Rudiam : 08-18-2013 at 03:56 PM.
 
Old 08-18-2013, 06:11 PM   #38
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I guess we'll see Autodesk heavily pushing their Entertainment Creation Suites in the next couple of years. Growth is what matters, after all. How about a Seat of Maya with your next upgrade of Max? Extra special limited offer. So interoperability between the apps is obviously important to them.
3ds max was good enough to get the ViZ Users on board but won't "grow" that easily any more. It will be "maintained" for a while but I think they did realize that bringing it up to date would be too much work/ is near impossible.
Populate shows in my opinion that the higher ups at AD see Max as a tool for archviz.
Maybe I'll wait and see how they'll update it, maybe I won't. (And maybe they won't, there is so much that was thrown in and never got finished or improved. )

Last edited by Noren : 08-18-2013 at 06:17 PM.
 
Old 08-19-2013, 03:41 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudiam
case and point the stuff that Michael Girard demoed a while back about "Directional Character Animation"(which has been removed ever since btw), that seemed to fit very well inside this tool, but hey, it's autodesk we are talking about, so they'll probably convince Micheal Girard to implement it into Maya instead.
Incorrect statement. That demo was part of what became Project Geppetto, which became Populate in 2014. Now is what was shown currently in 3ds max? No. Will it be there in the future? I don't know. However, the project behind the technology that was demoed is a part of 3ds max. Populate is still in it's infancy, but hopefully we will see it evolve into something that can be used for more general crowd/AI usage in the future.

FYI, Maya has no crowd system included (outside of building one with particles). 3ds max comes with more than one (CS Crowd, Populate, and of course particle driven).

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Old 08-19-2013, 09:08 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PiXeL_MoNKeY
Incorrect statement. That demo was part of what became Project Geppetto, which became Populate in 2014.


Um, what?...No, I'm pretty sure what was demoed(which for some reason has been removed from vimeo) isn't implemented in anything yet(I know what project Geppetto/Populate is), are you sure you know what I'm referring to?.. I'm talking about the demo in which the characters locate an object in the scene(ie. a chair) and automatically find their way towards it and sit on it(using a predefined library of motions that are blended automatically together).

Btw, I was pretty much making the same point as you, which is this tool as far as I can tell isn't finished yet, developing wise.

Last edited by Rudiam : 08-19-2013 at 09:33 PM.
 
Old 08-19-2013, 10:28 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudiam
Um, what?...No, I'm pretty sure what was demoed(which for some reason has been removed from vimeo) isn't implemented in anything yet(I know what project Geppetto/Populate is), are you sure you know what I'm referring to?.. I'm talking about the demo in which the characters locate an object in the scene(ie. a chair) and automatically find their way towards it and sit on it(using a predefined library of motions that are blended automatically together).

Btw, I was pretty much making the same point as you, which is this tool as far as I can tell isn't finished yet, developing wise.


Are you sure you're not refering to the autodesk pathfinding demo?
http://gameware.autodesk.com/kynaps...res/pathfinding


That has nothing to do with max.
 
Old 08-19-2013, 10:35 PM   #42
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Here you go, I'm talking about that, which doesn't appear to be there any more, also note the date.
 
Old 08-19-2013, 10:43 PM   #43
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The directable character stuff is Populate. Now the people running and stuff is not what we have, but it is all based off the core technology. Without the directable character stuff there would be no Populate. Like I said do we have the ability to do what was shown? No. May we in the future? Possibly. The problem is to implement all of that in a user friendly way isn't always easy, and it could have meant years before we had Populate if they waited to deliver everything that was demoed. Sometimes it is better to get basic tools out early, rather than wait years to have some super massive powerful tool that can be used by every market segment.

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Old 08-19-2013, 10:53 PM   #44
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You and I, are pretty much saying the same thing, what I said in my first post was that as far as I can tell this tool is still in development, and for example that specific Directional Character animation system that was demoed(which isn't really the same thing we have right now, even if the core principles are similar) could be the next Module that will be implemented in this tool as it evolves.
 
Old 10-01-2013, 03:23 AM   #45
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The extension has gone live today and includes Service Pack 3 in the install.

http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/maxs...n-2014-are-live


Interested to see how well (or not) the Python implementation is received by the Technical users in the community!
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