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Old 01-27-2013, 01:01 PM   #1
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Samuel Enslin
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Hair&Fur in Max 2013

Hi,

been a while since I was here, Iīve recently started working in a small company and didnīt have time to do anything personal.
But now since I managed to squeeze in a couple of hours for my personal projects, Iīm back to my last unfinished project...and hair&fur.
I still canīt afford any decent hair-plugin, so Iīm still stuck with good old hair&fur.
But since I can use the farm at work and we use vray there, Iīd like to transition my files to vray.
I just did a quick test render at home with my old setup (max2012&mentalray) and the most nagging problem still seems to persist in max 2013:
Preprocessing time with maps in any of the hair&fur slots are still ridiculously long...
I remember someone confirming that it is a known problem, but I canīt recall if it was a Max problem or a mental ray problem.
So before I start reworking everything for vray, Iīd love to get some input on that subject...
 
Old 01-27-2013, 03:56 PM   #2
thorsten hartmann
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Hi

You must look different. Hair & Fur is a Plugin to create Hairīs in 3dsmax, and VRay or mental ray use Hair-Shader to render the geometry ( use mrprime). Most Problem is the Shader not Hair&Fur Plugin. I canīt say professionell about VRay, i am mental ray user, but it give many example about Vray and Hair, thats looks very good. If you want use mental ray again than look here please: http://www.infinity-vision.de/blog/hair_and_fur

mfg
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:21 AM   #3
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Hi Thorsten,

for now I couldnīt even get vray to work with mrprim to simply test the preprocessing time with maps: Whenever I chose mrprim max immediately crashed on me.
Tried with max 2012 and it didnīt crash.
Have to look into this bug tomorrow at work before i can go on with testing.

Like I said: My problem is the long translation/pre-processing times when using maps with hair&fur and I just wanted to know if they are the same with vray, when using mrprim.
 
Old 01-28-2013, 10:19 AM   #4
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Hi Samuel,

at 3dsmax2013 is Hair with mentalray better as bevor. Second i use Pavel Puppet Hair Shader and the translating time is OK. I have not test Vray, but i think it work fast an good, because they have Vray Fur and this give it not for mental ray 3dsmax user, only for maya users.

mfg
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:14 PM   #5
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:38 PM   #6
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Thanks for the input guys, but render times or quality (be it vray or mental ray) really wasnīt my issue.
My issue was just with maps in hair&fur and the resulting translation times.
Those were like 10 Minutes and more whenever I used density or scale maps or any such thing in hair&fur, so I couldnīt even do a quick test render with low resolution and sampling settings.
And while rendering a simple 5 second turntable, the rendertimes became horrendous, because it had to translate the scene for every single frame, so I had 20 Minutes render times per frame instead of 5-10.

Here is the result, if youīre interested:

https://vimeo.com/38103638#at=0

But now I want to do some animation and Iīd love to hear if anybody has similar problems or possible solutions (like: "In Vray the translation times are way shorter" or "I only use buffer rendering and it works perfect")...
 
Old 01-28-2013, 09:20 PM   #7
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Ok, I got it to work with vray on another computer. Same problem there.
Except here, as soon as I put map in any of the hair&fur slots, it takes forever to "update hairobj".
Hmpf. It only happens with mrprim or geometry as it seems, buffer method works like a charm (but obviously has enough other drawbacks). So at least I finally confirmed, that itīs not a mental ray problem, as the problem persists with vray...
Itīs just not possible to style interesting hair&fur without maps and with those horrible translation times with maps...

Its better if the mesh isnīt very dense, but if its too lowpoly I get other problems (with dense fur you can kind of see the hard edges of the lowpoly growth-mesh...guess I could mask that as a stylistic choice like in "Ice Age" or "Madagascar"...).
 
Old 01-28-2013, 10:27 PM   #8
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i cant believe it.


How Big is your Map, wish Format is it and have you Filter = "none"? At my last Project i must create many stuffed animals and it works. NAN Error comes if your Emitter object cut a other Object, the Hairs can cut a other Object, but not the Emitter.

PS: Computersystem must have 64Bit and a lot of RAM!

cheers
thorsten
 
Old 01-28-2013, 11:25 PM   #9
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Haha, I canīt believe it either...

Well, I donīt have the finest of systems, but it sure is 64 bit and 8 Gigs of ram should do the job I think...

Well, I have to check back on my old saves. I think I tried pretty much everything to reduce pre-processing times, every format I could think of (jpeg, tif, psd, even exr) and I also think I set filtering to "none".
Two things I realized immediately on opening a test-file I did with that character just for hair:
1. The maps were pretty large (4k). Iīll try to reduce their size, maybe that helps.
2. The Mesh had a turbosmooth on it. When I turned that off, translation times went down to about 3 Minutes per frame. Like I mentioned before: Since the fur is very short, it kind of showed through, when the growth mesh wasnīt completely smooth. But with Turbosmooth on the mesh was around 40.000 Polys, so I guess that is a bit overkill.
Iīll probably have to find a workaround for that, maybe try a push modifier or try autosmooth in the smoothing groups...

Maybe I also revisit my old threads on that subject, maybe I already found a solution back then...

And I also downloaded the demoscene from your blog thorsten, Iīll try to play around with it and make it as slow as mine...
 
Old 01-29-2013, 08:19 AM   #10
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Hi

oh yes, the Demoscene use unified Sampling with quality = 2.0 (for high-end), you must set to 0,2 and than can you better + faster test the scene.

mfg
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Old 01-31-2013, 12:29 AM   #11
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Hi,

just tested your scene...so here is how to mess it up quickly: Put a turbosmooth with two iterations on the cube. Then put some maps in the hair&fur slots...translation time goes from 20 seconds to 6 Minutes...

Guess this is just how it is then.
1. Canīt work around the turbosmooth, especially with short hair/fur.
2. Only workaround for the long translation time with maps:
Donīt use maps until youīre done with all the styling and material test renders, only use maps at he very end to give it the finishing touch.
3. Go with buffer rendering ifyou donīt mind creating a complicated light setup just for your hair and if compositing is possible and the look is ok for your purpose and: just donīt use mrprim...
4. Get some paying jobs for furry characters so you have a better reason then just your personal projects to buy hairfarm or ornatrix...

Over and out.
 
Old 01-31-2013, 12:29 AM   #12
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