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  01 January 2013
It definitely feels like all the new ideas are coming out of the marketing department these days.

A death knell for any creativity and progress.
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by Lagavulin16: I really just think AD is too big and corporate to be innovative anymore. They bought out the competitors and got lazy/greedy.

Look at the smaller companies like Maxon and The Foundry. Each release is packed with really great features that you won't find anywhere else. That's where all the innovation is.


I think you can call Autodesk "not innivative".

But, what was "great features that you won't find anywhere else" from Maxon and Foundry?
Also Maxon is not a small company at all.
 
  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by gandhics: I think you can call Autodesk "not innivative".

But, what was "great features that you won't find anywhere else" from Maxon and Foundry?
Also Maxon is not a small company at all.



Body paint sure was ahead of it's time compared to any of the alternatives 5 years ago. Still better than viewport canvas or the new PS 3d environment.

Mari now does the job very well from what I've seen or heard. 1700 texture on that dino in the demo?

What exactly are you looking for?
 
  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by gandhics: But, what was "great features that you won't find anywhere else" from Maxon and Foundry?
I think he misspoke and meant "great features you will find everywhere else, already". The fact of the matter is there is little innovation in this industry, it is more about one upping existing technology or doing it slightly different and calling it new. All software developers are playing catch up with one another in one way or another. Just cause Modo finally adds deformers/space warps doesn't make it new or innovating. They may add a different spin on how it is done, but the technology isn't anything new. If Cinema4D and Modo were as great an innovating, then they would be the class leaders. Also, it has already been said that Autodesk has bought all the competition, which they haven't, but I guess that means that Cinema4D and Modo aren't innovating cause that would definitely mean competition. Of course the grass is always greener, and if you actually dug through the forums for Cinema4D and Modo you would see their long time users making the same complaints about them, their policies, and their products.
Quote: Also Maxon is not a small company at all.
Yep and owned by a large CAD development company. Sound familiar?

-Eric
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by x24BitVoxel: Body paint sure was ahead of it's time compared to any of the alternatives 5 years ago. Still better than viewport canvas or the new PS 3d environment.

Mari now does the job very well from what I've seen or heard. 1700 texture on that dino in the demo?

What exactly are you looking for?


If you want to call "painting directly on 3d geo" as an example of innovation, you surely can say that 3ds max is an innovative product.
 
  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by gandhics: If you want to call "painting directly on 3d geo" as an example of innovation, you surely can say that 3ds max is an innovative product.



My opinion is that the first person to do something is an innovator. People that did the same thing after are not innovating, they are embracing. Max was first in things a long time ago, but now offers nothing that other packages don't offer. I'm guessing that's the discrepancy.

Anyhow I don't hate max or anything, I love it. But I realize if I want something truly new and exciting it's not coming from Autodesk, or they'll just purchase it.
 
  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by x24BitVoxel: My opinion is that the first person to do something is an innovator. People that did the same thing after are not innovating, they are embracing.
Then no one in the industry is innovating any more. Mari didn't innovate with PTEX, they took what Disney made available and embraced it. Everyone product is now embracing and nothing more. Deep Pixel Compositing, again that came from Hollywood and has been picked up by a few products. Fluids, nothing new here. Modeling, again nothing new here. Rendering, again nothing new here. Animation, again nothing new.

-Eric
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by PiXeL_MoNKeY: Then no one in the industry is innovating any more. Mari didn't innovate with PTEX, they took what Disney made available and embraced it. Everyone product is now embracing and nothing more. Deep Pixel Compositing, again that came from Hollywood and has been picked up by a few products. Fluids, nothing new here. Modeling, again nothing new here. Rendering, again nothing new here. Animation, again nothing new.

-Eric



Agreed.

So the industry might need to realize that asking us to pay innovative prices for things (like yesteryear) isn't going to work out in the long run. In my opinion.

Given my studio is still using 2010 with no plans to upgrade (and the previous studio 2011 with no plans as well) this is something I can see/touch.
 
  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by PhilipC: ...I'm far from believing that Maxis being left behind.


Well, i haven't made my mind up yet finally.
But in the very very long term 3 applications with 3 totally different ui's on the one hand and doing basically the same on the other hand. i am talking 10-15 years or more. AD needs 3 groups of developers, 3 product management teams a.s.o a.s.o. If they really want so save money in the long term, that would be my approach.

Do i feel cheated?... Yes. This years subscription pinata was only a small cookie for some special users. in comparison what was in the midterm box in the last years, 2012 was a shame. And rising the subscription rates on the other hand has started some serious calculation in my head.

Cheated isn't the right word.. disappointed would fit better.
With Shane and Ken gone, nobody seems to look in these forums... perhaps the funniest time with the 3dsmax team is over... time will tell.
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by PhilipC: I'm actually really exited about adobe's new approach of monthly subscriptions - which enables them to progressively improve their program - instead of just rolling out huge changes every year


That is what you do when you have mature software and lack any real innovation. Progressive improvement, no, it is about leveling out the list of features that is on the drawing board to maximize profits over future releases giving the users IMO not enough for their monies worth. Hence why they have discontinued previous version upgrades, forcing the user to pay yearly and dearly for usage rights. Adobe isn't going to roll out a feature here and there willy nilly, nothing is changing except the amount of money you give them. Any smart user of adobes products would forgo upgrades to every second or third release at which point the compiled list of new features' value actually matched the price one was paying for the upgrade.

It is all about having choices, choices that bean counters don't like simply because results are unpredictable leaving undefinable values.

Wait until you have been paying for your software for a decade or two and watch your software "progressively evolve" getting slower performance, losing features, breaking features, ect., ect. It becomes a little frustrating when you pay for your software. You care less when a company pays for your licenses for you.

I find myself "owning" a lot less software and being much more conscientious about what I dedicate time and effort to learn these days.
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by gandhics: If you want to call "painting directly on 3d geo" as an example of innovation, you surely can say that 3ds max is an innovative product.


Hi,

You're completely correct that "painting directly on 3d geo" is not really an innovation.

We do however feel that Mari is an innovative system. Being able to render and interact with many tens of GBs of data in a smooth and fluid way does not come for free.

The real innovation in Mari is at a core, software engineering level that, if we've done our job correctly, the user never sees. What they do see if the ability to not worry about managing memory, copying files, loading and unloading data and worrying about resource management.

In some of our client sites we've seen workflow speed-ups of up to x5 with Mari. I.e. something that previously would have taken 5 days taking 1. It may not be sexy innovation to you, but it can have a dramatic benefit for our customers.

J
 
  01 January 2013
There's innovation and there's doing it well, or expanding what you do.

Sadly core Max falls short in that department for some things and it's third parties filling the gap.

Take the modifier stack or the modifiers themselves - they haven't substantially changed since the early years, and something like Genome coming from Autodesk would have impressed me.

Same with Frost, the blobmesh code is so creaky it's unbelievable.
 
  01 January 2013
I have to agree with Steve on most of this stuff. We use 3ds max day in and day out. Unfortunately, I'm responsible for paying my own subscription fee if I want max kept up to date yearly. (FedEx doesn't do yearly; can't figure out why or change that. Too beaurocratic.)

So, yeah, I'm keenly aware of bang for buck in our program's development. At $540 every January.... I'm a bit underwhelmed by the development of max and have considered looking to Modo for my aviation modeling duties. FedEx will let me work on whatever platform I want, so..... since I'm mostly modeling and only doing the minimum of animation it is tempting to learn another program and be done with max.

Only thing is, I still like max for the familiarity and long term love/hate relationship. But I feel like there just have to be solutions out there which would feel even better. Or make me feel better about their future. $540 a year is just too much for the movement they've been giving us the last two releases.

Mabye I'm kidding myself, but the point is, Autodesk may may lose a very long term customer because once I stop subscription, there's never going back. And if I change my approach there's 6 other artists who may decide to change theirs. Not a threat to Autodesk, obviously, and no big change I'm sure. But that's the way I stand about now. I've got this subscription and maybe one more (maybe) in me. And that's it.

Mahlon
 
  01 January 2013
I'm holding my breath for 2014 in anticipation of all the new features it will have

I definitely feel cheated in some way or another. Max is stale and has been for years, and my guess is it will be for the foreseeable future. Instead of investing more time in Max, the last year after the 2013 repackaging of the same software, I have been broadening my horizons and learning Modo. I can see myself leaving Max soon and taking my 4 seats and subscriptions with me. We are paid up this year, so I have this next year to learn Modo fully. Max 2014 will be another dud and nothing will stop me after that. I am shooting for not renewing the subs next January. We are not getting what we pay for plain and simple. We may be lucky if we getting 5% of the development we are paying for yearly, the rest go to salaries, bonuses and shareholders.
 
  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by forelle: It may not be sexy innovation to you, but it can have a dramatic benefit for our customers.


This is my point.
Nowadays there are not many thing left that can safisfy everybody.
There will be always thing that I dont need but beneficial to others.
I would not say this as "cheated".
This is just a nature of matured software.
 
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