Do you also feel cheated?

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Old 01 January 2013   #1
Do you also feel cheated?

I have been working in the industry for quite a few years now, and ever since I began using 3ds max 6 I have seen the program evolving through the years.
Lately, pretty much like Microsoft Windows are releasing a new "operating systems" under a huge software bundles that are pretty much nothing more than eye candys making you feel something new and better is happening, and some small utilities, I have just seen Autodesk's 3DS Max 2013 new features, and sincerely, I just don't get it. Revit connection? new ActiveShade for my viewport? Are these and their likes are a good reason for me to purchase a NEW software for my office? Is THIS the reason why I need to keep up to the pace of other offices because of legacy support?

Why not fix that right-click menu bug that is halfway visible many times and you can't tell if it's there? How about real new modifiers? What about something new and replenishing for that software like Cinema-4D's MoGraph? Am I the only one feeling like that?
 
Old 01 January 2013   #2
i think most of us are aware of this - but i wouldn't blame anyone - because - if you look around, you will see that every big software which is 10+ years on the market has the same problem.
Its nearly impossible to do a complete rewrite, many jobs - (not only programming, also the whole marketing etc.) depend on this, and bigger company = less flexible. Most studios have their pipelines set up so it works the way it is, plugins etc. etc.
I dont know about cinema, but i would say maya is in a similar mess.
Just look at autocad, 30 years now and the whole thing is not even WYSIWYG..
So - just forget it, it wont change anymore - look out for other upcoming software and use what you have until something better comes along
 
Old 01 January 2013   #3
Well you need to have a reason to come up with a new whole VERSION of the software.
if you look at other packages like AfterFX for example, they have integrated a 3D Tracker and are seriously integrating 3D capabilities into a compositing software which is quite big of a deal. Some users can spare themselves buying other packages for 3D tracking now that AfterFX does that (and you can argue how good it is, but that's another subject - although it seems to work well to me so far).
Photoshop has lots of new capabilities in every version they come up with.
With 3DSMax it just feels like they got more scripts written and put into the package, compiling a new version and the public has to keep up with it.
Just doesn't feel right. Especially in 3D there is so much to evolve more that I can't help it but feeling something must be wrong here.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #4
yes photoshop is indeed in good shape after all that years..
on the flipside - like max it didnt change its basic structure since ..probably the beginning. (anyone remembers deluxe paint? )
and a 2d image editor is easier to program and to maintain that a huge 3d package (and i mean like 10 times easier) - and in the 2d field there is enough things that can evolve - who would say no to a node based photoshop?

No question that any software that starts putting the year in the version title is going downhill, and adobe stuff is mostly stable, but look at a screenshot of cs 1 - its the same concept, mostly same functionality and 10 years and 6 versions have passed.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #5
damjan, you emphasize my point. Then don't come up with a new version until you actually make it worth the title a version.
yearly versions aren't so bad if they actually propose anything meaningful, but in 3DSMax case it just feels like no actual progression was made especially when you look outside and see so much development put into the 3D realm.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #6
Actually Photoshop needs to come up with a proper non-destructive workflow for CS7. Why are Smart Objects store as uncompressed data? What about file linking like AE or 3d applications? What about not enforcing Gamma 2.2 on all imported EXR files?

No program is perfect. Yes they all have improvements in some area, but how those improvements really effect users will be on a user by user case. If I didn't have to deliver layered PSD files so others could edit them I would probably do all of my still work in Composite as it provides for the most part the compositing tools I need.

-Eric
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Old 01 January 2013   #7
I agree that it is a matter of a user by user thing, but really improving a viewport of the program I am working on, and adding cosmetic glitter like a gradient on the viewport (which seems to be the latest big thing - for 3ds max I don't know why - Since when being able to use my hardware become such a big thing that I need 3 versions or more?) Of course, there are lots of aspects regarding software engineering - being one myself I know that adding to the topmost levels is the easiest thing, i.e. scripts or code that uses same classes. All these can be used in many other ways, but I am saying - why create a NEW version?
It doesn't serve anything but making money for the owners of the software, and since they bought all the competition, I think we all know the answer.
It results in a degrade in software quality, degrade in REAL improvement, bug fixes, and most important of all, advancement.
Users end up buying the "latest" up to "cutting edge" "technology", when in fact it didn't advance much for years now, well how can it?
 
Old 01 January 2013   #8
Personally, I do feel cheated. I could list why but I don't want to be negative. I'm just not happy with AD anymore at all, and I don't think there is much they can do to change my mind at this point.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #9
Yeah Adobe is definitely not any better. Had to call their phone support for some of our Creative Cloud licenses, because Acrobat XI Pro won't license. The automated message was that there was over a 2 hour wait and I would be called back. When I left the office 4 hours after that, still no call back. If there call time is that long that means people are definitely having issues with their products.

So is 3ds max worth it? To me sure, for the small amount I pay yearly for Subscription I more than make that back. Most products have moved to a similarly priced yearly Subscription/Maintenance model. Feature wise sure there is stuff I never use, stuff I use that needs more work, etc. However, I don't expect any better experience anywhere else.

Personal recommendation, if you aren't happy try other products and read their forums here. See what their users are saying, but don't expect to see a large difference as from what I have found your feelings can be found by every product user group here. If you find something that works better, then divorce Autodesk and start a new relationship with another company.

-Eric
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"The Evil Monkey hiding in your closet."
 
Old 01 January 2013   #10
I'd say that unless you've got very specific needs, you're not going to get much out of the upgrades, and money is better spent on another app or plugins that address your concerns.

For me, it's also down to what I feel is Autodesk's attitude and complacency, and 2012 was the year where it got to the point where I asked myself why I was continuing to pay them for a service that I wasn't happy with - it was summed up with no development for PFlow, then being classed as a second-class user by not buying into the creation suite subscription, which even then was more bundled plugins I already had bought.

That combined with the price hikes and layoffs just made me think I'm tired of this - and no confidence in the direction Autodesk are going with Max. I'm keeping one eye on what happens now that Frank is back in charge, but their decision to jack the price of upgrades beyond what is reasonable just reminds me of the directionless madness which killed combustion.

Complaining about it on forums is not going to change much, and to be honest I doubt cancelling subs is going to do much either, but it certainly made me feel better about the situation.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #11
Not cheated but diss-appointed.

Max is a great tool but it's falling behind in some areas:

http://www.cgchannel.com/2013/01/bl...ulpting-system/
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?174873

Over the last few years Zbrush has become the tool that I start working and developing in - not Max. I now see this as a better modelling tool than Max (for concept etc.)

Going back to Max actually feels a little clunky and slow to be honest....mainly because I think of the interface changes.
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Old 01 January 2013   #12
Originally Posted by Steve Green: but their decision to jack the price of upgrades beyond what is reasonable just reminds me of the directionless madness which killed combustion.
That is the software industry as a whole. Adobe is doing the same thing. They are officially on a 12 month cycle for all products, and at the end of 2012 you are only be able to upgrade from the last major release. From the FAQ here:
Owners of CS3 and CS4 individual products and suite editions will receive temporary upgrade pricing to CS6 until December 31, 2012. After that date, only customers on CS5 or CS5.5 will qualify for upgrade pricing to CS6.
They are pushing to move everyone to their Creative Cloud Subscription service. It is now more costly to do a single major upgrade (CS5 to CS6, CS5.5 to CS6 is 50% the CS5 cost), than to be on Creative Cloud. Just a Photoshop Extended CS5 to CS6 upgrade is $399/yr (purchase is $999), while the Creative Cloud single-app is $240/yr. For $600/yr ($360 first yr introductory offer) you get most Adobe apps, but even then there are some additional fees and services for specific Creative Cloud only features. However, once you become a part of the Creative Cloud you are stuck as there is no route to go from the Subscription model to non-Subscription model, and these licenses check every 30 days for a valid account. No account and you can't use the software.

Now the Autodesk, Adobe, and other vendors offering similar methods for their Subscriptions and entitlements are different, but most large corporate software vendors are moving to this model. Each user and what software they use and are willing to pay for it will need to make their own decision on what is right for them. If you don't like it you need to stop using computers and software, because this is becoming the software model.

-Eric
__________________
"The Evil Monkey hiding in your closet."
 
Old 01 January 2013   #13
The difference being that Adobe have made some attempt to woo users, with the 50% off deal for CS when apple dropped the ball on final cut pro.

Autodesk don't seem to respond at all, just increase the efforts to piss off the end user. Like I said, they pitched combustion at borderline too high a price, then when it didn't sell that well, inexplicably jacked the price up to way more than the cost of 3DS Max, at which point it sold f*** all.

So finally they panicked and fire-saled it whilst doing little to develop it, didn't offer a sidegrade to Toxik and effectively scuppered that as a product as well.

Adobe do seem to make more of an effort, and I'm more inclined to stick with them than Autodesk.

The 'if you don't like it, don't use computers' is, to be honest, cobblers.

It's really not going to stop me using whatever I have for a good while. And to be honest, software development has been so slow moving for the past few years, it wouldn't be that big a deal to stick with what I have.

Look at Adobe's spanky new raytrace engine, which is pretty useless compared to Element 3D. It's not a million miles away from what I expect from Autodesk.

The ball is in their collective courts.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #14
I'm an artist so I don't really care for the actual pricing but I agree that 1700$ seems too much just for migrating from 2012-2013.

However I do feel like there are decent updates in max 2013, and I do appreciate a lot of the smaller fixes a lot actually. Max is a solid piece of software and while there might be many things to wish for I think that Max is actually progressively being improved and not actually getting worse like Maya..

I don't feel like its fair to demand free upgrades exceeding the scale of bug fixes - you bought the product the way it came and not with the promise of additional features...
I'm actually really exited about adobe's new approach of monthly subscriptions - which enables them to progressively improve their program - instead of just rolling out huge changes every year - which makes it really hard to migrate to newer versions.. there is a reason we stayed with max 2010 until last year really...


yearly versions aren't so bad if they actually propose anything meaningful, but in 3DSMax case it just feels like no actual progression was made especially when you look outside and see so much development put into the 3D realm.


What big developments are you referring to? What fundamental change were you hoping for? I'm far from believing that Maxis being left behind.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #15
I really just think AD is too big and corporate to be innovative anymore. They bought out the competitors and got lazy/greedy.

Look at the smaller companies like Maxon and The Foundry. Each release is packed with really great features that you won't find anywhere else. That's where all the innovation is.
 
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