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Old 08-08-2012, 12:26 PM   #151
garryclarke
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Why? This still results in a two-tier system and (despite the disparate complaints from different parties in this thread) this is surely the key issue?


Exactly, it's not the content it's the 2 tier subscription that's the problem.
 
Old 08-08-2012, 03:00 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ
Is there a logic behind the delay? I appreciate that you've addressed similar questions with the response "Nothing is simple in a product that has 1M active users worldwide and is localized in 5 languages." but this implies that there is some fundamental difference between the ECS and standard versions of 3ds Max 2013?


Once we get a fix we to rebuild the full package, run that through an automated test suite, update the installer, rebuild the installer. From there the installer goes through a series of various install tests over multiple OSs, each in 64bit and 32bit, as well as testing deployments. All licensing must also be validated on each OS. Once all that passes QA then takes a pass over the extension and the entire 3ds Max build once the extension is installed. On a full build all features of 3ds Max get tested on every potential shipping release to be sure the rebuild did not introduce any issues elsewhere in the code. After the QA lead says its a "Go" this all starts over for the various languages.

Then the new 3ds Max and each language has to be replaced in the Suites build. So that installer needs updating then install and licensing testing on the suite. Then this starts over for each of the Suites languages.

Once the suite team gets it rebuilt we make a QA pass on it to verify all is good. This pass isn't as extensive but still takes time. Often we will then post the build to beta to get customer coverage and let it "bake" for a little.

Help and readmes must also be validated and updated as needed too.

It also takes time to rebuild the marketing communications for 3ds Max and the Suites so that we donít post something without the proper supporting info. That can take weeks alone.
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:13 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Green
My personal view, although I can't see how they can be disputed really.

(...)

And we're supposed to be grateful for this?


Read the whole thread. Amazing!

Agree with every word, Steve.

First of all, [RantON]

C'mon guys! I know Steve from this forum from a long time already. He's helped me and quite a lot of you, Max users, over the years when we were venturing on our daily work with 3dsMax! He is among the most conscious, active and polite "Maxer" I've seen! One can almost feel the sad bitter behind his words.

When a person like him steps up and say his mind on a subject in such way he calls attention. I stand behind every word he said and advise you all to do the same. Why? Simple:

1 - We can't accepted an apartheid system like this, which tries to makes two classes of Max users in an scandalous attempt to milk even more money from a regular costumer. It was NEVER said before that ECS subs are better than vanilla Max subs as loud as it is been screamed now.

This move just highlights that the primary interest of AD is increase dollar income in any opportunity it gets. Naturally! AD is a big company, it has to keep up with its quarterly goals, its financial targets, its revenue and base increase. We're numbers to them, just it. Numbers that can be put in spreadsheets, in formulas and mathematical models, in graphs with lots of shady interpretations.

They just ignore some of this tiny numbers have a mind of their own and can influence others! And here's reason no. 2 of why I agree to Steve.

2 - The fast response from Ken indicates that we have "some" power to influence AD decisions. But we have to make it louder. Not getting box#3? Don't care if I'm using it or not - We deserve the same "sweet" treatment. Getting box#2 in OCTOBER?? What is this all about? You can't seriously make us believe it will take 2 FULL months to change some install code!

Let's not let the steam fade away! What worse than bad marketing in a world as competitive as ours? If anything this whole thread (one of the fastest growing one I've seen in a long time) prove we can HOPE to do something about it. And hoping is something we've grown quite good at doing.

This is the closest of a "call to arms" I can make. Let's tweet about this. Post on our facebook pages. Let's make the word spread! We have to make clear that, or we're all getting the same treatment or none at all! I'm following BigPixolin, monoGana and others and talked with our studio staff we're moving away from Max if this stands as it is. Here in our city more and more people are jumping into C4D so maybe it's the right timming. Since #MyMax isn't as good as everyone else's, I see no reason to back it up.

If Steve is jumping ship, so am I! Adsk is doing too little, too late and in a F***cking disgusting way. They're BIDDING years-old plugins while others are developing the next state of art software outside their glassy walls.

Steve, thanks for stepping up! I thank you before for all your help getting me around Max's numerous bugs and I thank you again for showing that the solution might actually be to get around MAX altogether!

[/RantON]
 
Old 08-08-2012, 03:40 PM   #154
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Kelly, this is essentially a plugin install, not an overhaul of Max or the Suite build. It already "works" in Max. It is just that the installer disabled a portion. It's closer to having a checkbox in an installer when you choose the "custom" route. All you need to do is allow it to install these components for everyone.

The fact that you are suggesting it will take weeks to change the documentation alone is silly. Beta program to make sure the extensions work? If they show up in the app they work.

Here is what I propose:

1. Go through every mention of mParticles, doc and website and remove the "*" that says its only available for the suite.
2. Remove the step in the installer that checks if you have a Suite or not.
3. Offer an "quickfix" or "Beta" or whatever you want to call it for those interested.

This should take what.... hours? Maybe a few days?

ADSK is just making this way more complicated than it needs to be. Just do the right thing.
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:49 PM   #155
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Anyone else noticed the Ciname4D and houdini pricedrops?
 
Old 08-08-2012, 04:02 PM   #156
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You know your complaint about AD is right when Eric don't storm by defending it with his own blood!

Just kidding this time. He should be around any moment by now.
 
Old 08-08-2012, 04:09 PM   #157
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@David, thanks for the kind words, I didn't have any intention of becoming the voice of dissent, although I've strongly put my concerns forward over the past couple of years, and threatened to not renew my sub a few times.

I just can't understand why people would be happy with the situation that they're getting Box #2 and choose to ignore the bigger picture.

Now it is just time to cut the cord - I'm under no illusion that ADSK will take any notice if I don't renew, but it's the only thing I can do to make it clear how unhappy I am.

To be honest, it actually feels good to decide this...

Cheers

Steve
 
Old 08-08-2012, 04:51 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KellyM
Once we get a fix we to rebuild the full package, run that through an automated test suite, update the installer, rebuild the installer. From there the installer goes through a series of various install tests over multiple OSs, each in 64bit and 32bit, as well as testing deployments. All licensing must also be validated on each OS. Once all that passes QA then takes a pass over the extension and the entire 3ds Max build once the extension is installed. On a full build all features of 3ds Max get tested on every potential shipping release to be sure the rebuild did not introduce any issues elsewhere in the code. After the QA lead says its a "Go" this all starts over for the various languages.

Hi Kelly, thank you for the comprehensive response. I appreciate that the process for issuing an update/expansion is not straightforward, nor quick. However I have just downloaded an installer that dependant on my serial number will choose whether or not it enables the new features, so hopefully you can see why a two month delay to enable one seems insane?
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Last edited by AJ : 08-08-2012 at 04:54 PM.
 
Old 08-08-2012, 04:54 PM   #159
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I have been trying to follow all of this on my phone... Good grief 11 pages in 24 hours!

I really need a keyboard.

Having owned and used these since their release, this really doesn't do all that much for me. Sure the unified system will be great, if dev continues.

What kinda bothers me is yeah I would like these, sure, but how about making good on all the things broken since well XBR? You guys should be giving out big extensions just to make up for all pain XBR has/is causing. Like many people I have not even been able to really use 2012 with any sort of production worthy confidence. That means my 2013 just cost me a full upgrade price. Now you guys raise sub prices? Then "offer" this?!


So was all of this really some sort of user psych evaluation?

1. Announce partnership with Orbaz.
Perceived result: users are excited finally something! Only logical thing you would think might happen?
You get box#2 and maybe box#3, we all saw the XBR presentation.
Real result: seriously two cache ops or drop a bundle more, hmmm, yeah that's makes sense.

Anyway, someday all will be right in the world
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:04 PM   #160
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just unlock the damn morpher to more than 100 morph channels, with support for negative progressive shapes!! ARG!!FIX THE DAMN THING!!
 
Old 08-08-2012, 05:12 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metamesh
just unlock the damn morpher to more than 100 morph channels, with support for negative progressive shapes!! ARG!!FIX THE DAMN THING!!


Sorry, but this only works for getting 3dsmax Subscription extensions.
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Old 08-08-2012, 06:36 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Green
Autodesk abandoned Particle Flow development, and Oleg filled the gap. They bundled Box 1 after he developed it, and all we've had are presets developed by Allan Mackay.

Now they are bundling old plugins from this time (Box 3 was released end of 2005, Box 2 is a little over 3 years old)

Particle users frustrated by the lack of development would have already bought one or other of these, although Box 2 was the most commercial of the two, unless you were a hardcore particle user.

They are limiting a 5-year old plugin to those on another tier, and are unable to disclose what will happen in 2014.

Subscriptions are going up.

Let's look at Autodesk's previous attempts to squeeze users.

The combustion price jacked up past the price of Max killed it, and it's expensive replacement Toxik, relegated to being bundled with Max and Maya and pretty much stagnant development-wise.

And we're supposed to be grateful for this?


Toxik was (is?) such a joke.

I've come to the realization that Autodesk has ZERO innovation, never really have. Max is a messy jumble of 3rd party plugins that they bought up over the years. Stopping development on some of it's best features (particle flow), adding in bloated features that nobody uses, etc..

It's pretty straightforward - they are a public company and have to make money for the shareholders, simple as that. That drives everything they do.

Our studio has pretty much switched over to Cinema 4D. Maxon is extremely smart about what they did with Cinema4D, it has a great community and every release feels like they listen to what users want.
 
Old 08-08-2012, 09:32 PM   #163
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It's like a little kid that got caught doing something sneaky! You catch him on it, and maybe he puts the money back sheepishly into mom's purse, then slinks away. No explanation of WHY he thought that was a good idea in the first place. And in our case, he still pocketed some of mom's change.

I'd love to see an actual official statement from Autodesk of WHY they are not giving Max subscribers the full benefits they're paying for. I cannot see a good reason for this, so would be really impressed to see what they could possibly write to defend this idea.
 
Old 08-08-2012, 09:54 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpolcino
I'd love to see an actual official statement from Autodesk of WHY they are not giving Max subscribers the full benefits they're paying for. I cannot see a good reason for this, so would be really impressed to see what they could possibly write to defend this idea.


Ahh but you see, that isn't possible. They can't tell us anything about any of the wonderful and amazing plans they have for the future, so we just have to wait and trust them. Of course, it will be fantastic, because they have the data that says so! Just like the data that said this whole debacle was a good idea...
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:00 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garryclarke
Exactly, it's not the content it's the 2 tier subscription that's the problem.

I agree.

Whilst it is admirable that AD have taken some heed of the outcry on here so quickly, it doesn't address the core issue; AD thought it acceptable that for ~£400, subscribers would be happy to accept a 5 year old $50 plugin as a special benefit and example of autodesks "latest technology".

I would laugh if it wasn't so tragic.
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