State Sets problems - Max2014 sp3

Become a member of the CGSociety

Connect, Share, and Learn with our Large Growing CG Art Community. It's Free!

REPLY TO THREAD
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  02 February 2014
Hi Noren,

Thanks so much for following up on this. I will have a look at your scene ASAP.

For Templates we are looking into way to track layers. That would be very helpful. Also keeping the template name would be a good idea so we will look into that.

EDIT: Oh ya.. and Outliner does produce some strange results with State Sets and other things ;/. Cool tool but can get wonky.

Thanks again
Michael
__________________
www.mmccarthy.com
Autodesk Master

Last edited by Michael-McCarthy : 02 February 2014 at 03:38 PM.
 
  02 February 2014
No Problem, and thanks for being here.
That's a LOT better than sending out bug reports with usually no feedback at all.
 
  02 February 2014
What would also be very convenient:

When a sub-state automatically could add the name of the parent-state to the name of the rendered files.
Maybe as an option.
(Or is that possible, already? )

That way, if you have a template, you just need to name the parent states and don't have to name all the sub-states as well.
 
  02 February 2014
Originally Posted by Noren: What would also be very convenient:

When a sub-state automatically could add the name of the parent-state to the name of the rendered files.
Maybe as an option.
(Or is that possible, already? )

That way, if you have a template, you just need to name the parent states and don't have to name all the sub-states as well.


Good Idea. We plan to work on Templates more in the not so distant future so I will keep this in mind.

BTW Nates issue that started this thread is fixed in SP4 I want to thank Nate for reporting and following up on it.

We have also identified the issue you submitted but it was to tight a turnaround for this SP. It will be addressed though. Thank you for reporting and following up with me. Thats how issues get resolved!

Thanks again
Michael
__________________
www.mmccarthy.com
Autodesk Master
 
  02 February 2014
My pleasure.

As for the naming thing mentioned above, it probably would be enough if we could set something like {ParenstateName} in the output path.

Btw: Changing the renderer and a lot of the render related settings indeed don't make it through the templates, as far as I can tell.

Last edited by Noren : 02 February 2014 at 01:16 AM.
 
  02 February 2014
I wonder if you read my wall of text about possible improvements of state sets I wonder if it could work, and if not, what would be the reasons... Cause if state sets remain to be unusable even in Max 2015, then i am considering to learn Max API just to make my own render pass plugin, that would not be so overcomplicated like other 3rd party pass plugins, and so unstable and unpredictable like state sets.
 
  02 February 2014
Hello Rawalanche,

As you can see from this thread we are working hard to make State Sets production proven and solid and making a great deal of progress. Both issues that have been brought up here have been addressed and one in the latest SP4 (I would suggest this is pretty responsive and fast turnaround for a large piece of software like 3ds max).

I am happy to discuss your ideas for State Sets below.
Originally Posted by Rawalanche: 1, You have a reasonably complex finished scene setup. Then you create a new state, and enter that state. Once you enter that state, you can do any sorts of crazy things without being careful at all. You can do anything and everything you need in order to set up the pass you want, without need to be careful about absolutely anything except doing physical changes to the scene. That means deleting objects, moving, animating them or changing meshes at their base (non-modifier) level.

This how State Sets works now. If you have a fairly complex finished scene you can go into a State, Record it, and make your changes. Of course as you say not everything is trackable but most things are. There has been a request to remove the need to press Record and we have heard that request.
Originally Posted by Rawalanche: 2, Then once you exit the state, everything is exactly 100% same, as it was before, and if you render again, you get to the pixel same result. In case new objects were created in the process of setting up the render pass, then these objects should be hidden from the base pass and other passes for both viewport and render, so that what you have is 100% identical to what you had before you started to work with different state.

This is again the case with the exception that State Sets does not track the creation of new nodes in a State. Its a good idea but a complex one. Its hard to say when you create a new object if you only want it in that State or if you want it in all or just the Base State. For this reason its recommended you create any new objects in the Base State and then deal with them as you like in other States/Passes. With that said.
Originally Posted by Rawalanche: 3, You can again do absolutely any changes in your base state, except deleting objects, moving, animating them or changing meshes at their base (non-modifier) level, and if you return to your render pass, that you had set up before, everything will again be 100% the same as before... and if you render again, you get to the pixel same result again.

This is a bit more restrictive then State Sets is. If you could not remove objects, keep animating with them or change their meshes it would be pretty restrictive. One of State Sets benefits is that you can change the Base State and it will propagate through all your render passes.
Originally Posted by Rawalanche: 4, At the creation of states, there would be two options - Clean state, and Reference state:

Clean state would mean there are no connections to the base state, so for example changing render settings resolution or environment map in base state would not be propagated to this state.

Reference state would mean that any options, be it render settings, object viewport/render visibility, materials, environment and so on would be always referenced from the base state unless you change them, once you change one, it would become unique to this state.

Right now State Sets only does this "Reference state" as you describe it. We have thought of adding a "Clean" or "Snap Shot" State too. This is a complex thing to do however and it adds complexity for the user that may not be wanted/needed.
Originally Posted by Rawalanche: 5, Most important rule. Any non physical changes (deleting objects, moving, animating them or changing meshes at their base) made in any state except the base state can NEVER EVER, under ANY circumstance affect base, or any other state.

This is already the case as long as you are recording.
Originally Posted by Rawalanche: 6, Then of course, there would be sub-state system, which would be a reference state, that would not reference settings from the base state, but it's parent state instead. That would make a single exception in point #5, where non-physical chances in non-base state are propagated to all of the sub-states, except for those changes, that were made unique in in sub-states by being changed.

State Sets does already have Sub States and they are very powerful. They may not work as you describe here but that does seem rather complex. I am not sure all users would need, understand, or want this type of setup.
Originally Posted by Rawalanche: So basically i would think of it as many scenes contained within one scene file, that together share objects, their position, animation and base level geometry of meshes.

In my opinion, if it worked this way, according to these simple rules, and was stable and bug free, it would be both pleasant and efficient to work with. Design that breaks any of these rules will be always very prone to problems.

I appreciate your feedback for sure and you have many good ideas here. Many of them are similar to how State Sets already works and some of them are already requested by other users and under consideration. Please do understand that what you have outlined might be great for you and what you think users like you would need but may not be the best for everyone. It might be too complex or missing features that others need.

Thanks a bunch!
Michael McCarthy
__________________
www.mmccarthy.com
Autodesk Master
 
  02 February 2014
Thanks for the information

Anyway, the entire point of my suggestion was that while it would make state sets a little more restrictive, if those rules were kept, they would be nearly bulletproof as there would be almost nothing that could possibly break.

I am not sure that the flexibility state sets currently offer are worth the instability and fragility. I have never ever experienced any complex case where state sets would work properly for me.

I gave them another few tries past month as i was doing a job that required a lot of passes, but always either broke, or my states got mixed up with base state which then became unusable.
 
  03 March 2014
Hi guys,

Sorry it took me awhile to respond to this thread again, but looks like SP4 has fixed the issues I was having. I would really suggest everyone install it and give it a go.

I want to say thanks to Michael!!! I have never seen this kind of quick response before on a software product!!

-n
__________________
www.clowar.com
 
  04 April 2014
Unhappy

Just been wondering, is there any particular reason why Scene States won't record World-Space Modifiers on/off state? Object-Space recording works fine. Max 2014, SP-5



 
  04 April 2014
Thanks to you Nate. Its actually users like you that take the time to submit a reproducible issue that make it possible to have fast feedback and fix's. Whenever we can thats what we want to do with State Sets.
__________________
www.mmccarthy.com
Autodesk Master
 
  04 April 2014
Originally Posted by lamer3d: Just been wondering, is there any particular reason why Scene States won't record World-Space Modifiers on/off state? Object-Space recording works fine. Max 2014, SP-5



Howdy,

These are a little more difficult to track because they always live on top of the stack. That said its not impossible. We are looking at doing more modifier tracking abilities like On/Off in view so maybe this could be added if a good deal of users need it.

Thanks
Michael
__________________
www.mmccarthy.com
Autodesk Master
 
  04 April 2014
Thank you for reply Michael. At this moment I'll stick around with Scripted State, which is life saving feature for such non-trackable cases. Other than that, I didn't have any issues with states so far. Ah, and small comment. Is it possible to make path fields in state editor a bit bigger or resizeable?



Thanks.
 
  04 April 2014
Originally Posted by lamer3d: Thank you for reply Michael. At this moment I'll stick around with Scripted State, which is life saving feature for such non-trackable cases. Other than that, I didn't have any issues with states so far. Ah, and small comment. Is it possible to make path fields in state editor a bit bigger or resizeable?



Thanks.


Ya this is a bit of a Small Annoying Thing that has been mentioned before. We did a lot of SAT's with State Sets for 2015 but not this one. I will make sure its on the list for the next round
__________________
www.mmccarthy.com
Autodesk Master
 
  06 June 2014
Question

Hi
State Sets doesn't record unhide an object but it records hiding same ones.
Is it related to not installing 3ds Max Service packs and do service packs fix this problem?
When I install 3ds Max 2014 Service packs, for no reason 3ds Max freezes after a while even in an empty scene and I have to close 3ds Max from Task Manager. But without installing SPs I have no problem.
Where is the State Sets problem in unhiding objects?
__________________
#letter4u
If you`re looking for the truth
Message of leader of the Iran to the youth
fb.com/letter4youth
 
reply share thread



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright 2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.