2013 extension announcement...rant

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  08 August 2012
Joining you guys here, the 2 tier subscription is not acceptable. I have also contacted my reseller to express my thoughts on this.

One of the problems I think is that the Suites aren't flexible and people ask themselves if they really need two or three more programs that they'll never going to use. If there was a way for me to buy Max + Mudbox with a discount, I'd immediately do so. But I don't see why I would buy a Suite with Max, Mudbox , Motion Builder, Sketchbook and pay way more than I'm able to.
Sorry if this goes OT but if Autodesk needs to add extra values to their Suites in order to increase sells, they may have to rethink their Suite model in the first place.
 
  08 August 2012
In defence of Ken, it sounds like the original subs only getting cache operators was not what he intended, he was surprised that was the case when it was pointed out.

I don't know what happened but it sounded like someone made a decision while he was on sabbatical.

Not that it makes a huge difference to the end result for me, and I still object to the concept of two-tier Max subscription, but I thought I should add some balance.
 
  08 August 2012
I still believe there is more to come.
4 months after release is much to early for the midterm pinata.
6 months after the release, 6 months before the next release.
Looking at it strategically , the dates should be set way back in 2011.
We all now they don't anounce anything before the release date is locked tight,

What i think is that the particle flow/massfx extension are a sugar on top.
And remember:... it's SIgraph they need at least a little bit to announce.

I may be 200% or 300 % wrong here, But we won't get any conformation or denial from AD.
After all these years we all should know how the game is played and not starting a shitstorm
every month....At least i learned my lesson.
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Last edited by captain brainiac : 08 August 2012 at 10:50 AM.
 
  08 August 2012
A funny (or not so funny) sidenote:
Just last month Autodesk aquired SocialCam - a small Facebook/iPhone app developer - for a whopping $60Mio. The company consists of only 4 guys.
Rember: aquiring Alias ( including Maya, Studiotools and Motionbuilder and of course expertise, patents etc...) had cost them only three times more back in 2005).

Now bring that into relation to the greedy penny-pincher mentality Autodesk is showing to their loyal 3ds max userbase. And that just in times when they are told to hang on for a bright distant future, while the current Max development has to go through rough terrain...

What a creative development push could have been initiated with that money ?

Be sure to look at the huge decline in user activiy of socialcam recently
http://www.appdata.com/devs/1512831-socialcam

Here's more info about that deal
http://allthingsd.com/20120717/auto...ialcam-for-60m/

http://www.businessinsider.com/soci...autodesk-2012-7

http://seekingalpha.com/article/729...rce=marketwatch
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Last edited by spacefrog : 08 August 2012 at 11:10 AM.
 
  08 August 2012
Cap'n B: I don't doubt that there may be new cool things coming, but there are multiple issues here, and people are having varying levels of response to those:

The one that I think lies beneath it all for some (to an extent me as well) is that AD has seemingly not kept pace with other products in terms of CORE features. So now you have SideFX releasing Houdini at $5k with a ton of features that require plugins/$$ with Max. Yes, Max is therefore more flexible (don't buy what you don't need), but Max development in some areas has been lethargic.

But then add to that the fact that their first instinct was to take a portion of Max that has been lagging in development and make the acquisition of that improvement dependent upon buying a suite of products with functionality that other users don't need, or that they may already have in another product (like ZBrush).

If they want to make suite subscriptions more attractive, they should be developing special things for those other products (free training and such). So owners of single products get the same perks as a single product subscriber, and suite subs get more perks simply by virtue of owning more products.

Their first thought was not how best to serve the customer and drive loyalty, but how they could compel people to buy suites.

The other thing that is annoying is SKU proliferation - that bugs some of us quite a bit. Now you have to decide if you want Max, or Max Design, or a subscription to Max that has a group of additional toys for Max, or a subscription to the suite that includes a DIFFERENT set of Max-specific benefits...madness.

Frankly, though, for me the biggest issue is that in addition to lagging on development in some areas in favor of fiddling with the UI, they are compounding the 'reliance on plugins' issue. Now if I want Function A, I need to buy plug-in A, but if I need Function A AND Function B, I have to buy plugin A, and then make sure I have the right subscription level.
 
  08 August 2012
Originally Posted by captain brainiac: I may be 200% or 300 % wrong here, But we won't get any conformation or denial from AD.
After all these years we all should know how the game is played and not starting a shitstorm
every month....At least i learned my lesson.


If they were planning to release another extension in a couple of months, they would have every reason in the world to confirm it or at least hint at it, in the face of such negative criticism.
 
  08 August 2012
Regarding Box#2 - pure speculation, of course...

Quote: Originally Posted by kenpimentel
... no later than October 2012.


Quote: Originally Posted by AJ
Is there a logic behind the delay?


http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthr...88&page=1&pp=15
 
  08 August 2012
Originally Posted by spacefrog: (...)

What a creative development push could have been initiated with that money ?

(...)

That puts things in perspective on what are AD's truly priorities.
 
  08 August 2012
I can't believe this has happened, as a loyal user of Max for over 15 years, the past 5 years of releases have been underwhelming to say the least. Then you throw in the fact that all they seem to do is buy out 3rd party developers and throw in those plugins that people may already have purchased...pitiful! And now with the price hike and the two tiered subscription and the splitting of what each tier will get....my studio is going to have to think long and hard about renewing.

I mean we don't need motion builder or mudbox yet they are trying to force people into purchasing things that they may or may not need in order to get a few plugins that already existed and for less than the cost of the current subscription....WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON AT AD?

Another HUGE disappointment!
 
  08 August 2012
I was just looking over the history of 3ds Max and 3D Studio DOS and realized that I or the small studios I've worked for have been continuously supporting Autodesk with money for 22 YEARS ( back to 3D Studio DOS R1)!

Like others I've been giving Autodesk the benefit of the doubt for these last few releases since staying on subscription WAS relatively cheap. The added extensions were mostly older plug-ins I didn't care much about that had been bought up and renamed, but at least we were getting something, right?

What's maddening is Autodesk had to know people would not be happy with subscription prices going up, and NOW they decide that a "regular" subscription is not even worth that?!
I also resent this idea that 3ds Max is not enough and I need to buy a "suite" to get my job done professionally. What's to stop them from continuing to exclude Max features from "non-suite" customers until we're all forced to buy a suite to get our jobs done?This really has been the "straw that broke the camel's back."
Everyone's been frustrated with the lack of development and higher prices, but this is really turning the knife.I think this is what everyone feared when Autodesk started buying up every other major 3D package. They can do whatever they want because users have few options to go elsewhere.
I would jump ship to Maya if they weren't Autodesk owned as well.

I do appreciate Ken acting so quickly to rectify the situation somewhat, but it's really been an "emperor's new clothes" situation for me. I think it's too little too late and a lot of Max users have just HAD it.
Like others said before, I'm sure Autodesk doesn't care if a freelancer like me jumps ship, but I have to say for the first time in 22 years, I'll be looking at non-Autodesk owned competition.

I still don't think Autodesk realizes how major this all is.
 
  08 August 2012
Originally Posted by captain brainiac: I may be 200% or 300 % wrong here, But we won't get any conformation or denial from AD.
After all these years we all should know how the game is played and not starting a shitstorm
every month....At least i learned my lesson.


I do know how the game is played...

1.) AD comes out with a new version of software
2.) Online community erupts in disgust and indignation
3.) AD neither confirms or denies
4.) Anger peters out to gnawing discontent as I finally migrate around December/February
5.) AD comes out with new version of software

Hey, who remember the time when Maya had 3 versions and you had to buy the Ultimate version to get painteffects and everything else cool? Oh I do!
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  08 August 2012
Originally Posted by neutronrobot: I was just looking over the history of 3ds Max and 3D Studio DOS and realized that I or the small studios I've worked for have been continuously supporting Autodesk with money for 22 YEARS ( back to 3D Studio DOS R1)!


I'm always surprised that people don't know that Autodesk as owned 3ds Max since the beginning. Admittedly the history is a little confusing since 3ds Max was being developed by divisions of Autodesk.
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  08 August 2012
Originally Posted by japetus: I do know how the game is played...

1.) AD comes out with a new version of software
2.) Online community erupts in disgust and indignation
3.) AD neither confirms or denies
4.) Anger peters out to gnawing discontent as I finally migrate around December/February
5.) AD comes out with new version of software

Hey, who remember the time when Maya had 3 versions and you had to buy the Ultimate version to get painteffects and everything else cool? Oh I do!


I was always confused about the Maya naming convention--Ultimate is the most featured but then there's Complete? Which isn't complete
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  08 August 2012
Is this right? The file is 210MB big, and only contains a Cache Disk operator for PFlow?
 
  08 August 2012
I love Max... and I think 2013 is great. That isn't my beef as I personally think the program gets better each year.

My problem is that, as expressed by many others in this thread and others across the Net over the years, is that AD works in such a way that We The Users lose faith and trust. Max isn't like most programs that are out there, and those of us who dive into Max aren't doing what the casual app user is doing--we invest a deep part of our personalities into a relationship with this program. We have no choice but to be very defensive and paranoid about Max because it is our gateway to expression.

AD repeatedly does things that foster mistrust. I am sure that everyone here is on edge because we simply know, as a fact, that we individually are completely non-important to AD. The fact that price hikes may push any one of us little guys or small studios out of the game doesn't mean anything to the AD bottom line. That's really scary. The decisions to only look at forcing extra profit out of the userbase pocketbooks without looking at the big picture is unnerving. Prices for gas, groceries, etc are going up so our dollars count for less... so we cannot afford these updates. That tight belt makes us already drop support of 3rd party apps we also love. So those companies shrink or die (is Glu/Pwrapper in death throes?). When those companies die, it hurts the Max culture.

And it's not like we can just conjure more money like AD can. There is a limited number of clients you can get... who have their own shrinking budgets.

And in that context, this extension. I had been patiently waiting for Orbaz to recompile for 2013... so the immediate excitement of the Extension was waiting to come out. But almost immediately I felt punched in the gut by yet another expectation of even more money. I even own Mudbox (and enjoy)... but have found no good reason to upgrade for the last couple of years ... and really just don't have the income to go to the suite.

Like everyone else here, I said to myself, "Didn't I already pay for this with my subscription?" And again... it makes us feel like the value of our dollar shrinks even further.

Anyway, Orbaz has come through for current customers and AD is compromising on some of that. So the immediate topic of this thread is more or less addressed. But the long-term is not. For those of us that live, breathe and die Max, it's really scary. I feel like there really are people who are so fixated on profits today that they are creating scenarios that destroy profitability in the future. I personally want AD to be extremely profitable because it is essential to the life of our beloved Max. So I am not averse to AD and profit. But at some point they have to realize that you cannot get anything more out of individual licenses and instead have to think about ways to increase license counts alone as a means to higher profits. Squeezing us too hard and alienating us is equivalent to killing the Goose that Laid the Golden Eggs.

Unfortunately, there are some threshholds past which the consequences do become long reaching.

AD needs to take its eye off of today's profit and start looking at long-term profit. And a huge part in doing that is rebuilding trust and confidence in its users--its customers! That cannot happen with repeated steps that alienate and belittle and coerce us.
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Last edited by wallworm : 08 August 2012 at 04:56 PM.
 
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