Variety: Foreign Incentives Help Crush Once-Booming F/X Biz in U.S.

Become a member of the CGSociety

Connect, Share, and Learn with our Large Growing CG Art Community. It's Free!

THREAD CLOSED
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08 August 2013   #16
Halifax used to have a surprisingly large and growing animation industry. Then the government took away the incentives and most of the studios closed up. Despite my best efforts I haven't been able to break into the larger work markets like Toronto or Vancouver because the competition is intense from people already out there with better credits and experience to their name. Freelance, I'm competing with kids from places where they can and will work for a pittance. I sympathize with Cali-based artists because I've seen how the wind can change.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #17
Originally Posted by SanjayChand: I dont see any thing xenophobic about the idea of self-preservation.

LA/Cali based artist are usually anti-subsidy because the subsidies hurt them.
Canadian/Euro artists tend to not be anti-subsidy as the subsidies benefit them.

In the end, there is no point in finger-pointing or calling each other names.

It is what it is.


Where's your fact to back this up? I've worked for two major studios in vancouver now and neither one has even a 50% majority of Canadians. At Rhythm we often joked about how few Canadians there were, and the core 25 that stayed when all was said and done included only 4 or 5 Canadians. One of the most common conversations I've had for the last year with friends is in regards to getting their permanent residency, be they from India, Korea, Russia, Israel, United States etc. None of these people are new to the industry. They've all worked at Weta, Sony, DD etc.

To say there is no finger pointing or calling of names is to be ignorant of what your fellow artists down there are doig and saying. VFX solidarity really struggled for a bit early on with people being offended by the types of posts being written. I never had a green square avatar because it was all to clear that the initial movement wasn't about the industry but a out Californians. The signs at the Oscar protest were all too clear.

Give me some mathematical evidence of how the subsidies in vancouver are responsible for either DD or Rhythms fates. Show me how those two studios didnt open those facilities as attempts to stay competitive by simply reducing cost of employees instead of trying to bring more money in and wasting money in other ways.

Leigh isn't European by the way and she's worked in London, LA and South Africa to say the least, and Ive worked in LA and vancouver and intend to try to wok on one of MPCs futureprojects in Montreal despite my desire to settle in vancouver. It's where the work goes and despite MPC having several shows in vancouver for me it's a show I want to work on so ill go where it goes. When it is done ill come back here even if MPC doesn't have more work for me here ill try other studios and if not ill freelance. I managed 5 years in vancouver without actually working for a single vancouver company working on 2 feature films, one broadway show and plenty of commercials and the like. Point being a lot of this industry, a very very large portion. Have already been relocating to work in it so this is nothing new. It is only new to native Californians or perhaps Americans who don't see moving states as relocating.

The main reason that LA had such a long hold on the industry was les about I owl edge and talent and more with accessibility. As the technology has refined to the pint we can easily handle the large amounts of data over an international network with little issue and easily and cost effectively video conference with a cheap webcam and free softwares, the need for having your location directly in Los Angeles has no major benefit to a company anymore. The industry want in LA for the talents sake, it was there for the clients sake. It's always been a out the clients and that is why studios underbid, and why they don't charge for drastic changes or putting entire productions on hold for months at a time, and that is the actual cause where as the use of subsidies as I said before is just a symptom of them trying to make ends meet because they already are burdening too many costs for so little money.
__________________
Quote: "Until you do what you believe in, how do you know whether you believe in it or not?" -Leo Tolstoy
Kai Pedersen
 
Old 08 August 2013   #18
Originally Posted by eworc: Agreed 100%.

Stating that people are "anti-European and anti-Asian", Xenophobic or having any other psychological disorder is absurd.


Clearly you haven't read many discussions about this subject; perhaps you should, and then you can come back here and apologise for calling me absurd.

When US artists make disparaging remarks about other cultures (and the Asian artists have been particular targets in this regard), and go on and on ad nauseam about how other countries are "stealing" their work, that's absolutely xenophobia.
__________________
leighvanderbyl.com
 
Old 08 August 2013   #19
Originally Posted by RobertoOrtiz: Hi Leigh, I see your point, but for me the the issue at hand is not about US Xenophobia directed at foreigners doing FX work. It is more about people fighting to stay afloat.


I didn't say the issue itself was xenophobic, I said that this article was likely to stir up xenophobic comments again, like pretty much every thread on this topic does. It seems every discussion turns ugly and frankly I am tired of such ugliness here on CGTalk. If people want to rant them they should rant to their friends on Facebook instead of coming to an international site like this and ragging on "foreigners for stealing work", as invariably always happens.

You say you want to help your friends in the industry, but posting these articles doesn't help anyone, it just stirs the pot. These are not issues that discussions on a web forum are going to solve; what's happening in the industry is a simple, inevitable result of globalisation and pursuit of profit.
__________________
leighvanderbyl.com
 
Old 08 August 2013   #20
Originally Posted by LucentDreams: Where's your fact to back this up? I've worked for two major studios in vancouver now and neither one has even a 50% majority of Canadians. At Rhythm we often joked about how few Canadians there were, and the core 25 that stayed when all was said and done included only 4 or 5 Canadians. One of the most common conversations I've had for the last year with friends is in regards to getting their permanent residency, be they from India, Korea, Russia, Israel, United States etc. None of these people are new to the industry. They've all worked at Weta, Sony, DD etc.

To say there is no finger pointing or calling of names is to be ignorant of what your fellow artists down there are doig and saying. VFX solidarity really struggled for a bit early on with people being offended by the types of posts being written. I never had a green square avatar because it was all to clear that the initial movement wasn't about the industry but a out Californians. The signs at the Oscar protest were all too clear.

Give me some mathematical evidence of how the subsidies in vancouver are responsible for either DD or Rhythms fates. Show me how those two studios didnt open those facilities as attempts to stay competitive by simply reducing cost of employees instead of trying to bring more money in and wasting money in other ways.

Leigh isn't European by the way and she's worked in London, LA and South Africa to say the least, and Ive worked in LA and vancouver and intend to try to wok on one of MPCs futureprojects in Montreal despite my desire to settle in vancouver. It's where the work goes and despite MPC having several shows in vancouver for me it's a show I want to work on so ill go where it goes. When it is done ill come back here even if MPC doesn't have more work for me here ill try other studios and if not ill freelance. I managed 5 years in vancouver without actually working for a single vancouver company working on 2 feature films, one broadway show and plenty of commercials and the like. Point being a lot of this industry, a very very large portion. Have already been relocating to work in it so this is nothing new. It is only new to native Californians or perhaps Americans who don't see moving states as relocating.

The main reason that LA had such a long hold on the industry was les about I owl edge and talent and more with accessibility. As the technology has refined to the pint we can easily handle the large amounts of data over an international network with little issue and easily and cost effectively video conference with a cheap webcam and free softwares, the need for having your location directly in Los Angeles has no major benefit to a company anymore. The industry want in LA for the talents sake, it was there for the clients sake. It's always been a out the clients and that is why studios underbid, and why they don't charge for drastic changes or putting entire productions on hold for months at a time, and that is the actual cause where as the use of subsidies as I said before is just a symptom of them trying to make ends meet because they already are burdening too many costs for so little money.

I never stated there was no finger-pointing or calling names. Im saying its pointless to do such.

Second, I didnt comment on the nationalities of who works in Vancouver or why DD or RnH went under. My comments were strictly about subsidies and the attitudes of Californians vs Canadians/Europeans or those who wish to work in Canada/Europe.

We can sit here all day and go back and forth but the bottom line is that there is absolutely no reason for California artists to be pro-subsidy*.







*unless they want to leave california and/or dont mind being a nomad.
__________________
Previously "Aryafx"

Website and Demo Reel:
http://www.sanjaychand.com

Last edited by SanjayChand : 08 August 2013 at 05:41 PM.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #21
Originally Posted by leigh: Clearly you haven't read many discussions about this subject; perhaps you should, and then you can come back here and apologise for calling me absurd.

When US artists make disparaging remarks about other cultures (and the Asian artists have been particular targets in this regard), and go on and on ad nauseam about how other countries are "stealing" their work, that's absolutely xenophobia.


I am saying it's absurd to start off any dialogue by impugning other's concerns as being anti-anything or xenophobic...I don't need to read any discussions for that to be inherently a truth.

A phobia is an irrational fear and quite frankly, the same people that have rational concerns regarding their employment and future from outside their own country, do so within as well.

So, if this specific thread turns into US artists making disparaging remarks, whatever that is to you, then go ahead and play the phobic card, until then, you are disrespecting the opinions of others before they are even voiced. No apology will be forth coming.

Last edited by eworc : 08 August 2013 at 06:04 PM. Reason: will vs with
 
Old 08 August 2013   #22
Originally Posted by eworc: I am saying it's absurd to start off any dialogue by impugning other's concerns as being anti-anything or xenophobic...I don't need to read any discussions for that to be inherently a truth.

A phobia is an irrational fear and quite frankly, the same people that have rational concerns regarding their employment and future from outside their own country, do so within as well.

So, if this specific thread turns into US artists making disparaging remarks, whatever that is to you, then go ahead and play the phobic card, until then, you are disrespecting the opinions of others before they are even voiced. No apology will be forth coming.


So you don't actually want to bother checking whether or not what I'm saying is true, you just want to whine about me pointing it out.

Okay.

Either you're not actually reading my posts properly, or you just want to grind your axe.
__________________
leighvanderbyl.com
 
Old 08 August 2013   #23
Nice. Now throw out there that people are postphobic or have to have some agenda. They can't possibly have any valid points to make or they would be coinciding with your own. What's next, spelling or grammatical errors.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #24
Originally Posted by eworc: Nice. Now throw out there that people are postphobic or have to have some agenda. They can't possibly have any valid points to make or they would be coinciding with your own. What's next, spelling or grammatical errors.


Seriously, what are you talking about? It's abundantly clear from a number of your comments here that:

1. You misread my first post; or
2. You're projecting some bias of your own onto what I've said.

Because not once have I said that people's "concerns" about this issue are xenophobic. On the contrary, I've quite specifically said that these discussions have a tendency to degenerate into disparaging remarks about cultures/foreigners. Because they do. And if you don't recognise hateful remarks about certain cultures or countries as xenophobia, then I'd say you don't know what xenophobia is.

Until such time as you respond to what I actually said as opposed to what you've imagined I said, you're simply going off on a bizarre tangent.
__________________
leighvanderbyl.com
 
Old 08 August 2013   #25
I misread your first post...

You then stated, "...prompt a furor of anti-European and anti-Asian sentiment. Some of the comments posted below that Variety article epitomize exactly what I am talking about."

I went back and read the comments and I didn't read any disparaging or Xenophobic comments. So, please, copy and paste a comment below the op's Variety article that fits your perception of what is hateful remarks.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #26
Quote: ...Subsidies aren't a cause, their a symptom.




IMO EVERYONE needs to read the above sentence from LucentDreams over and over until they can see it in their sleep because that's the real issue. Work will ALWAYS be cheaper somewhere else regardless of subsidies. Also, where that hypothetical "less expensive" place is, will change with the times. So that being said I'd have to echo the statements that too much focus is given over to those subsidies when there are much more pressing issues at hand (like someone else said, can you blame the "subsidies" for DD?)? To me it's almost like doing an autopsy on a man who died from a gunshot wound but focusing on his cholestrol level.

Also, I know I posted this in another thread a few weeks ago, but I feel like it bears repeating:

It's all the subsidies fault
It's all the For Profit Colleges fault
Things were better way back when
Things are different now
Overly simplified answer to intensely complicated problem
Overly complicated answer to completely invented problem

There. I just listed nearly every article we've looked at for the last year and probably covered every article we're going to look at for the next two ....

Edited for clarity

Last edited by Crotalis : 08 August 2013 at 08:21 PM.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #27
Originally Posted by eworc: I misread your first post...

You then stated, "...prompt a furor of anti-European and anti-Asian sentiment. Some of the comments posted below that Variety article epitomize exactly what I am talking about."

I went back and read the comments and I didn't read any disparaging or Xenophobic comments. So, please, copy and paste a comment below the op's Variety article that fits your perception of what is hateful remarks.


Read my first post again. I mentioned not only xenophobia, but tempers. Remember? When I mentioned the comments posted below the Variety article, I was speaking more generally with regard to the kind of angry response this issue results in. It's unproductive, it's just people ranting.

Although there was one comment about how "Europe already has a rich heritage and should leave cinema to the US!" which is hilarious considering cinema was pioneered in Europe. That kind of facepalming ignorance tends to lead to xenophobia.
__________________
leighvanderbyl.com
 
Old 08 August 2013   #28
Sure, it's possible the article was done as xenophobic, but I'm not really seeing it that way.

To me it's just part of a genre of alarmist writing that basically say, "arrrggghhh! talent/jobs are being bled away from our... <insert: "country", "state", "city", "company", "department">
 
Old 08 August 2013   #29
leigh :

Ok, I didn't read any hateful or disparaging remarks about Euro/Asian countries, people or culture there, nor any that I could characterize as revealing a temper or xenophobia.

We obviously have different views on what constitutes the application of those words.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #30
One point I want to make isthat I hope to god people donít view this as a Xenophobic attack on other countries. New Zealand, the UK, Australia are some countries that have been producing amazing VFX work lately. Korean animation studios have been kicking butt at the 2D animation studions, In paris Illumination Ent has proven that CG good animation is not region specific and in India studios like Prana have been doing great work.

In short, there are some incredible vfx studios out side the US.
Nobody questions that.




The issue is more on whatis going on right now on the US and how this kind of situation is like cancerthat is affecting the whole VFX biz.



Originally Posted by TimothyElliot: Sure, it's possible the article was done as xenophobic, but I'm not really seeing it that way.


Agreed

Originally Posted by TimothyElliot: To me it's just part of a genre of alarmist writing that basically say, "arrrggghhh! talent/jobs are being bled away from our... <insert: "country", "state", "city", "company", "department">

I would not call it alarmist...I honestly think that there is a huge crisis going on.



This is an interview from a top location manager in LA:
http://locationmanagers.org/lmga/q-...th-chris-baugh/

Quote:
"... Nevertheless incentive- chasing has fractured the talent base across the country such that it can be very difficult to sustain a full time career living in one place anymore. Weíve seen what happened in Michigan Ė after their film rebate was canceled those film jobs dried up overnight. Iím hesitant to relocate to a rebate state because those entire industries could be over with a stroke of a pen. Thatís a scary reality to build your life on."


OK the point has been made.
I am closing the thread.
__________________
LW FREE MODELS:FOR REAL Home Anatomy Thread
FXWARS
:Daily Sketch Forum:HCR Modeling
This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government


Last edited by RobertoOrtiz : 08 August 2013 at 09:16 PM.
 
Thread Closed share thread



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.