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Old 08 August 2013   #61
Holy shit! Stefan Didak!
Man I hadn't seen that name around for a while.

I'm glad now for that MU article, it's bringing out a lot of bundles of fun in their 50s and 60s
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Old 08 August 2013   #62
Originally Posted by Kzin: thats one of the problems, the users thinking that all from ad is godgiven and cant be changed so they dont try it until its to late. then they start a whining thread and searching for the guilty.


Oh please stop. This is very much like in a dictatorship when the dictator says: 'We don't hear anyone complaining...!' AD's monopoly allows them to not to listen to their customers, regardless of how much we complain(ed). Remember the USA/Europe price difference discussions?
If you followed the annual pre-release threads here on cgtalk, people were always asking for the basic stuff to be fixed, useless or unfinished features to be revised, new features and so much more. I had high hopes that things would change when Ken Pimentel took over and actually talked to the users, one reason why many have calmed down. But it looks like ADs internal strategy more or less forced him to quit in the middle of the xbr initiative (my personal view). These times seem to be over however and that's why we stand up and complain.

Switching apps is really not easy. Like Steve stated, if you're running a studio you've invested a lot of money (too much actually) in the main app, subscriptions and 3rd party tools. The decision to switch means to invest another whole lot of money, that's why people hesitate. At least it is the case for me... but the last weeks and the thread over at MU have shown me that it is time now to give that a second thought.

Now for the important part: Stefan, thank you 1000 times for taking the time and sharing some of the spirit with us here. The WinRAR story is priceless and shows exactly that AD is no other than any other large company where 70% of the employees don't know what they do, it's indeed the best place for incompetence to grow freely.

This is the first time I'm really considering switching and thanks to you guys I don't feel like I'll be missing something. This is definitely the last year I'm paying my subs fees.

And, AD is currently doing the worst thing they could do: not answering.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #63
Originally Posted by Kzin: i dont get why you max users are whining what happened to max.
you are using the tool since years and you are paying for it since years. that means you are supporting the development direction since years. but what happens now? you blame autodesk that the dev in the last 10 years are gone in the wrong direction? are you serious?
the whole thing reminds me on lou and andy from little britain.



Its basically the same XSI users are experiencing... we all knew the writing on the wall after the acquisition but some refused to believe it (50-50 on my part but not anymore), I guess Softimage 2014 speaks for itself (same way 2013 also did).

I don't have a doubt there will be a Softimage 2015 and a Max 2015 as well and even a 2016... but the improvements will be scarce or nill, they will be maintenance releases like the ones bundled right now, story on MatchMover and the rest of the bundles tells it all.

Fortunately Softimage still has some more years left on it even if Dev basically stopped
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Old 08 August 2013   #64
Originally Posted by pokoy: Oh please stop. This is very much like in a dictatorship when the dictator says: 'We don't hear anyone complaining...!' AD's monopoly allows them to not to listen to their customers, regardless of how much we complain(ed). Remember the USA/Europe price difference discussions?
If you followed the annual pre-release threads here on cgtalk, people were always asking for the basic stuff to be fixed, useless or unfinished features to be revised, new features and so much more. I had high hopes that things would change when Ken Pimentel took over and actually talked to the users, one reason why many have calmed down. But it looks like ADs internal strategy more or less forced him to quit in the middle of the xbr initiative (my personal view). These times seem to be over however and that's why we stand up and complain.

Switching apps is really not easy. Like Steve stated, if you're running a studio you've invested a lot of money (too much actually) in the main app, subscriptions and 3rd party tools. The decision to switch means to invest another whole lot of money, that's why people hesitate. At least it is the case for me... but the last weeks and the thread over at MU have shown me that it is time now to give that a second thought.

Now for the important part: Stefan, thank you 1000 times for taking the time and sharing some of the spirit with us here. The WinRAR story is priceless and shows exactly that AD is no other than any other large company where 70% of the employees don't know what they do, it's indeed the best place for incompetence to grow freely.

This is the first time I'm really considering switching and thanks to you guys I don't feel like I'll be missing something. This is definitely the last year I'm paying my subs fees.

And, AD is currently doing the worst thing they could do: not answering.


if your company invest in the software, why they do it when max is that bad?
if this happens some years ago, why is it today a priceargument? or is your company in sub model? when yes, why the company invest in software which is not evolving? why paying for something which dont give you all a benefit?

if you are paying for sub you exactly know what you will get and that you support the current dev. that is the main argument of ad, supporting the current dev. if you dont like the direction, why you invest in that direction?

i dont like the main behavior here, complaining about the dev in the last years but paying sub for every new year, that makes no sense. are you really believe the situation will get better when blindly invest in max? really? the communication between you and your softwaredeveloper is completely broken.
the problem now is that you think its alone ad 's fault and they have to know what you want without you telling them what you want. as i wrote, this situation was known since some years, but did somebody complain 5 years ago? no, silent everywhere. now, the cookie is baked, user starts to complain. THAT is really strange and not reproducable.

as a sidenote, maya gets alot of usersrequest features in their releases, so the maya users must doing something different.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #65
I guess you didn't read the original MU thread. The point here is that it looks like the Maya team is getting way more resources than the max dev team!
It looks like you don't even know what the discussion is about.

I'll take the same route like Steve some posts above.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #66
Originally Posted by Kzin: the problem now is that you think its alone ad 's fault and they have to know what you want without you telling them what you want. as i wrote, this situation was known since some years, but did somebody complain 5 years ago? no, silent everywhere. now, the cookie is baked, user starts to complain. THAT is really strange and not reproducable.

as a sidenote, maya gets alot of usersrequest features in their releases, so the maya users must doing something different.

This not true: many people were and are very vocal for years, and this stuff has been managed in some good way by Ken Pimentel ( i do not say that AD listened , but they managed to simulate a listening attitude). This alle disappeared with Ken, an Frank Delise was placed as an interim as it seems, to soften the landing, nothing more.
Looks like you are completely new to the Max community and hence of no knowledge about those facts.
And the Maya user do not play a role in the current somewhat positive situation for them. It just happens because of some user independent upper AD managment decisions.
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Old 08 August 2013   #67
i dont say everything is fine, but especially for max i have heard from alot of people that plugins solves the problem. mr is bad integrated? no problem, use vray or final render. you need volumes? use fume, you need dynamics? use this and for hair use that.
i ask, but why is this not native or why is the native implemented that bad? "mmh, yeah, ad dont cares so we using this plugin".

this is happening since many many years and no one cared, thats the truth.
i have to say that everytime i ask, "but then its bad integrated, why not talking to ad", the awnser "yeah, i could, but they will not listen so i dont try".

now the bifroest (it was clear from beginning that max will not get it) thing came up and from one day to another the max users realizing maya gets more resources after the maya users talked and talking with ad? and this after they payed sub for every year. after ten years they realized nothing groundbreaking happened? now they realized the max dev is not user centric anymore compared to the old days?

from my experience, the max users played are big role which ended in the current situation.
i dont say ad did not failt here and there, but giving them all the fault is not a good move.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #68
the maya team is getting a lot help from outside... look at the alembic integration... the how to was done by the alembic team from ilm and sony... the new creasing tool is the one from pixar... there is also a lot other stuff going on from outside... maya was the last years in a hole... and now its getting back...

max has nearly 1 million user... all asking for different stuff... i see only 100 people in the wining threads... if really all max user would act as one force like the maya user something will change...
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Old 08 August 2013   #69
Originally Posted by Kzin: i dont say everything is fine, but especially for max i have heard from alot of people that plugins solves the problem. mr is bad integrated? no problem, use vray or final render. you need volumes? use fume, you need dynamics? use this and for hair use that.
i ask, but why is this not native or why is the native implemented that bad? "mmh, yeah, ad dont cares so we using this plugin".

this is happening since many many years and no one cared, thats the truth.
i have to say that everytime i ask, "but then its bad integrated, why not talking to ad", the awnser "yeah, i could, but they will not listen so i dont try".

now the bifroest (it was clear from beginning that max will not get it) thing came up and from one day to another the max users realizing maya gets more resources after the maya users talked and talking with ad? and this after they payed sub for every year. after ten years they realized nothing groundbreaking happened? now they realized the max dev is not user centric anymore compared to the old days?

from my experience, the max users played are big role which ended in the current situation.
i dont say ad did not failt here and there, but giving them all the fault is not a good move.


You are giving your 2 cents based on something you heard from other people. Not the best way to make an opinion but I respect your point of view.

Unfortunately you're terribly wrong. The path Max is trailling IS Adsk fault - despite countless efforts from so many active and veteran users to make contact, Adsk seems to be simply ignoring them all. You see, in the past some of us used to make request for features and we used to be answered in a way or another. Now it's just this, nothing empty vacuum.

And it's no like everybody went blind for ten years to suddenly wake up angry. Over this time there were roadmaps, inside development diaries, sneak peeks and outlines regarding the direction Max was going. The most recent iteration of this kind of approach was made by Ken who constantly updated his blog with news about Max and the XBR goals (remember everyone? Unified dynamics? "Diet"? Faster initialization? Improved viewport performance? Referencing system?).

Even though some things from the XBR plans weren't implemented the way everybody expected, there was this notion that since so many things were new they'd take some time to iron out all the issues. Now, 4 years after it all started, not only the majority of issues are still there (not all to be fair) but we have seen the communication channels diminish. Sum this to all the other signs we see (smaller development team for example) and we can paint a pretty grim picture of the future of Max.
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Old 08 August 2013   #70
Originally Posted by StefanDidak: The developer didn't want to install WinRAR to unpack the VM because he didn't know what WinRAR was and what strange things it might do on his machine.

I'm not joking.

...Wow

But I so appreciate Stefan Didak taking the time to put in his reply, -Thank You!
 
Old 08 August 2013   #71
BTW! I also salute you Mr Didak. Those two posts alone must earn some kind of badge here at CGtalk!

Cheers!
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Old 08 August 2013   #72
Originally Posted by davius: ... The path Max is trailling IS Adsk fault -


that is the only consistent thing in our industry, the faults are always the others, without exceptions.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #73
the long term view i have on 3dsmax (i've started with max 2.5 in 1999) is that autodesk want me to use Maya not 3dsmax.

so my options are to stay with 3dsmax that's not being developed, much like softimage's awful development of recent releases.

or....

Get maya and lap it up.

or....

go elsewhere and start again.
I have modo 701 as a 'plan B' i added 601 then updated to 701, it's not "3dsmax" but some of the things in it are pretty good, it doesn't replace 3dsmax currently in my opinion but i like it's renderer. Modo is VERY much like lightwave but one unified app not 2...it's modelling method of droppig the tool after you use it is exactly like lightwave...no modifiers or history stacks here at all, which is a backwards step from how i prefer to work.

Other options are cinema4d, blender and maybe houdini but houdini VERY expensive and looks really complicated to use.

Regards Cinema4d someone said recently what IF adobe snap up cinema4d and make it part of their creative cloud...man that sent shivers down my spine! YUK!!!
But cinema4d is the closest thing i've tried to looks and behaves like 3dsmax...maybe IF Maxon offered a big discount to migrate to cinema studio we'd jump, I'm certainly not going to pay full price to move from 3dsmax to cinema 4d.
Basically i need a cash incentive to move to cinema 4d right now.

Blender is always interesting to follow and it has 'some' 3dsmax like things with a few modifiers...that's a wait and see app for me right now.

I also have a couple of older lightwave seats but won't update them until it looks/behaves like a single app, although i'm somewhat tempted by the new motion capture plugin!

the future is DIM

should we just all fall to our knees and start to learn Maya?

If Autodesk offered a migration option for 3ds Max subscription users to swap over from max to maya at no cost in 2014..i'd defo consider that looking at where autodesk are going.

From Autodesk's point of view Maya is the future.
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Old 08 August 2013   #74
Thumbs up

Originally Posted by cresshead: the long term view i have on 3dsmax (i've started with max 2.5 in 1999) is that autodesk want me to use Maya not 3dsmax.

so my options are to stay with 3dsmax that's not being developed, much like softimage's awful development of recent releases.

or....

Get maya and lap it up.

or....

go elsewhere and start again.
I have modo 701 as a 'plan B' i added 601 then updated to 701, it's not "3dsmax" but some of the things in it are pretty good, it doesn't replace 3dsmax currently in my opinion but i like it's renderer. Modo is VERY much like lightwave but one unified app not 2...it's modelling method of droppig the tool after you use it is exactly like lightwave...no modifiers or history stacks here at all, which is a backwards step from how i prefer to work.

Other options are cinema4d, blender and maybe houdini but houdini VERY expensive and looks really complicated to use.

Regards Cinema4d someone said recently what IF adobe snap up cinema4d and make it part of their creative cloud...man that sent shivers down my spine! YUK!!!
But cinema4d is the closest thing i've tried to looks and behaves like 3dsmax...maybe IF Maxon offered a big discount to migrate to cinema studio we'd jump, I'm certainly not going to pay full price to move from 3dsmax to cinema 4d.
Basically i need a cash incentive to move to cinema 4d right now.

Blender is always interesting to follow and it has 'some' 3dsmax like things with a few modifiers...that's a wait and see app for me right now.

I also have a couple of older lightwave seats but won't update them until it looks/behaves like a single app, although i'm somewhat tempted by the new motion capture plugin!

the future is DIM

should we just all fall to our knees and start to learn Maya?

If Autodesk offered a migration option for 3ds Max subscription users to swap over from max to maya at no cost in 2014..i'd defo consider that looking at where autodesk are going.

From Autodesk's point of view Maya is the future.

Very well said!

Last edited by joshpurple : 08 August 2013 at 12:05 AM.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #75
Jamie Gwilliam @ 3dsLondon Wed &th August

Wednesday 7th August
For 7pm
Upstairs at The Plough, 27 Museum Street, WC1A

Map

Hi everyone,
Are you around this Wednesday for a catch up? Occasionally I don't manage to organise a full presentation in time for the evening, this being one. So if you want to be a hero this is a great opportunity to bring a project along to show everyone!

However, there's a great reason to come along this month- Jamie Gwilliam will be there and is keen to talk to the group. You may have read some discouraging rumours about 3ds Max recently. Jamie is a long time 3ds Max user and recently became the Territory Manager for the UK and Ireland (Jamie is also a long time supporter of the group, this year he organised the Q&A with Frank Delise and last month's presentation by Alex). This is a great chance to have an informal chat with him about any concerns or questions you may have. If you can't make it, you can always reach him by email or follow him on twitter.


Of course, all the usual networking, quite a few people / companies looking for people this month if the 3dslondon at gmail dot com Inbox is anything to go by. Apologies if I haven't replied recently, had a lot on!
Details at www.3dslondon.blogspot.co.uk and follow @3dslondon on Twitter.

See you there, regards, Simon
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