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Old 03 March 2013   #46
Originally Posted by SYmek: They obviously work on new architecture, new ICE in Maya, new Naiad they just bought. Not 2014, 2015 then, this is not a problem.

I have a strong repulsion impulse against judging a company reliability based on a single update's feature list. This is a trap which keeps most people away from making reasonable decisions about their future (yes, future, because unlike many people think, choosing software is not a tiny detail, people do flame wars, because they know it's important, as important as a couple of years of investment to yourself can be).

Behind this thread (and similar repeated every year) there is a believe that by providing cool update Adsk can justify itself. But you don't buy a trust this way, you don't make a business like this. You build it every day by being supportive, predictable and innovative. So either Adsk is currently the company you like to deal with, and your rants are completely misplaced, or is not, and a single update won't change anything. After all Adsk is *the* company thanks to you and your money and with that money they can always buy you by providing a gift like practically unusable Lagoa which was such a deal for naive people! (and now there is Naiad which makes people happy again despite the fact, it would be far better for FX artists if Naiad stayed independent). People react exactly as they want them to.

3ds Max costs in EU 4000 euros, that's for starter and for a biggest market share in industry. Modo costs 1100$ everywhere, Lightwave 1500$ everywhere, HoudiniFX starts at 4500$ everywhere and that's for a lowest market share and for a most complete tool set. All three with built-in unlimited network rendering by the way.

Neither Maya nor Max wouldn't survive without freelancers and small studios. Big studios aren't big deal. The latter prices tell something about what it takes to develop decent software. The difference is what brings sharks to the pool. It seems you like to be the bait, people. You feed monster.

As to not having a choice, third party plugins etc, which are really the only unique thing about Max: you would have all of them in a new shiny box in a months. Plugins developers aren't idiots, they follow market.

On the one side there are people who make living on what they love to do, staying focused on market of their choice, the pros they know, the industry they like to provide with technology. On the other there are guys in suites making money on providing shareholders profits. It's that simple. People making decisions at M&E are hired to produce the biggest profits from the lowest burden, and they are good at it, because they are paid for being good on making money, not making innovations, and you have chosen to make business with them. We make choices every day with every penny of ours.


This is wise talk SYmek , and i agree with you for 99% . But as you said it's all about choice, problem is when you don't have this choice , and i will point you to Raffaele post that sum up quite well why for some people you must use the tools of the place you work for. I've actually stop using Maya , and has decided to switch 100% to H for FX task , so in a certain way i have make my choice ... But if i'm unable to find work with this choice i will have only 2 options

- go back with maya and use the tool of my employers
- buy a H license on my own and start freelancing with it but its quite an investment ... but i'm seriously thinking about it ...

Anyways always a pleasure to have this spring talk with you (like every year ) , at each new Maya release. I would say it start to be a tradition , like The Christmas Tree, and the Easter Bell ...

Cheers

E
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Last edited by SebKaine : 03 March 2013 at 09:44 AM.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #47
Just to clarify, I do understand the level of mythology behind my text.

All was said here about closed pipelines and an amount of investments keeping companies with current solutions me knows well. The classical method of making position in an industry is to take away customer choice. No wonder why you can't really choose not to pay Adsk similarly to how difficult is to buy new computer not paying Microsoft. This is something managers are hired for. Hear stories from engineering markets where there is even worse situation.

There is second side of that story, which is that the talent pool is one of the most important factor of choosing software by smaller companies, and that neither AAA games nor big VFX studios can provide income shareholders are interested in, which makes plenty of space for gradually changing market proportions in a places, which are also easier to rebuild the pipeline for btw.

I don't mind Maya nor Max, I'm happy to have them around, they are good mature softwares. I mind paying too much, not having support, being bothered with marketing that insults me (by advertising student's projects as high-tech) and I do mind screwing my professional life with their big money coming from different market.

I run 20+ artists company for a couple of years, buying software and hardware for CG and IT dep. I could easily replace half of Adsk pipeline if only I had artists to work with. That half of profits lost in a broadest part of the market, would change a lot how some people at Adsk think (it would actually change those people literally).

It might not happen though because - and this is the main reason for my mythological attitude - the strongest source of inertia isn't the pipeline, but artists. This is really no different than choosing food or a place you do shopping. You can't spend money at Walmart and name yourself social-conscious at the same time.

As to companies and vision: they don't have one, people have visions, passions, attitudes, people do bugs and people can fix them. Make business with people, people
 
Old 03 March 2013   #48
The bottom line in my opinion is: untill people keep renewing subscriptions and giving AD money, they will always keep doing what they are doing. It is simple as that.
There are studios that are still using 2010 versions because they didnt think was worth to upgrade, because the quality and quantity of updates was not worth the price Autodesk asks for.

If more people would take this route, that is when you would see a change. It is the only way to change something, because Autodesk is just a money oriented company. So you need to fight back where you know you gonna hit for sure: money.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #49
@RebelPixel - While such a strategy ("take away their money") might work for certain software, in the case of Softimage specifically I highly doubt it. Significant loss of subscription income will inevitably lead to the discontinuation of Softimage, I'm afraid...
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Old 03 March 2013   #50
Originally Posted by Hirazi: @RebelPixel - While such a strategy ("take away their money") might work for certain software, in the case of Softimage specifically I highly doubt it. Significant loss of subscription income will inevitably lead to the discontinuation of Softimage, I'm afraid...


That might be or not be the case, anyway In my opinion is always better than keep being robbed over years, one after another.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #51
Originally Posted by RebelPixel: There are studios that are still using 2010 versions because they didnt think was worth to upgrade, because the quality and quantity of updates was not worth the price Autodesk asks for.

If more people would take this route, that is when you would see a change. It is the only way to change something, because Autodesk is just a money oriented company. So you need to fight back where you know you gonna hit for sure: money.


For the record. Running older releases makes these studios probably subscription customers because running older versions is one of the top subscription features for me. That does not really make you a wallet-voter per se.

Regards,
Thorsten
 
Old 03 March 2013   #52
camera sequencer is a feature ?!!! u can easily create that with a small ice
so what is your 2015 features ?
autodesk just kills Mudbox , Maya , Softimage and also Naiad soon

i will moving to Houdini and hope autodesk never buy that .
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Old 03 March 2013   #53
Quote: running older versions is one of the top subscription features for me.


Wait, what? You have to be on subscription to be allowed to run an older AD version? This is so backward, I must have missed something...
 
Old 03 March 2013   #54
Originally Posted by instinct-vfx: For the record. Running older releases makes these studios probably subscription customers because running older versions is one of the top subscription features for me. That does not really make you a wallet-voter per se.

Regards,
Thorsten


not totally correct... if you stopped subs at 2010 then you are allowed to run the last version(of course) and that would be?...yeh 2010.

if however you were on subs NOW (2013) and think that for example 3dsmax 2010 ran better than the current max 3013 if you stop subs you are stuck to using 3dsmax 2013 according to autodesk's licence policy.
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Last edited by cresshead : 03 March 2013 at 02:56 PM.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #55
Damn! 1 year for get now The HELP ALIGNED..?

Thats really a joke
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Old 03 March 2013   #56
Originally Posted by cresshead: not correct... if you stopped subs at 2010 then you are allowed to run the last version(of course) and that would be?...yeh 2010.

if however you were on subs NOW (2013) and think that for example 3dsmax 2010 ran better than the current max 3013 if you stop subs you are stuck to using 3dsmax 2013 according to autodesk's licence policy.


This only holds true if your seats stay constant tho. You cannot buy new seats and run 2010 without subscription, no? So if you want to add seats you need subscription, don't you?

Regards,
Thorsten

Edit: And as you can only go back a max of 3 Versions you can't get 2010 releases anymore anyway and with the 2014 release 2011 releases are out too, aren't they? Or is it current + 3 releases?
 
Old 03 March 2013   #57
Originally Posted by instinct-vfx: This only holds true if your seats stay constant tho. You cannot buy new seats and run 2010 without subscription, no? So if you want to add seats you need subscription, don't you?

Regards,
Thorsten

Edit: And as you can only go back a max of 3 Versions you can't get 2010 releases anymore anyway and with the 2014 release 2011 releases are out too, aren't they? Or is it current + 3 releases?



yeh, autodesk is making it a mess for artists just to understand what they can/can't use and see fit to change the rules each year too!

they want you tied in....and tied up with subscription...but even that isn;t enough they also want to twist your arm to go 'suites' as it brings them more revenue for potentially less work each release of their part.

I can see why there are alot of people looking around now for alternatives as autodesk turns up the cost but turns down the development.

as ever: i stand to be corrected this week with the release of the 2014 lineup....who knows what's in store..i'm ever hopeful
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Old 03 March 2013   #58
Originally Posted by techmage: Then they shoddily develop maya, integrating new features that max had two versions ago, but not as cleanly nor with as good of user experience, so that you then eventually just switch to max.

Then they don't ever upgrade the backbone core of max, or refine the entire workflow of it's use to make it on par with other modern applications. So then you just switch to modo or c4d.


You know with the amount of money, developers, time, experience and knowledge that major VFX studios have, I don't see why they don't all just use blender, and then all start collectively developing it.


They are better off monetizing their tools as plug-ins. I think quite a number of products started as in house tools.

Besides, there could be a case one company spent cash and man-hour working on it while other studios just ride on. But then again, that is what people using Blender for free are doing But when shareholders are involved an all... you know.

But I really can't wait for the day to arrive.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #59
some info for those interested.. max/maya/etc are really a small drop in a really large bucket..
Revenue split:
Platform 38%
Arch 28%
Manufacture 24%
Media 10%

revenue stream was $2.21 billion (yeah you read that right);
26% $566mil was spent on R&D

Lics revenue $1.35 billion
Maintenance $858 billtion


full financial statement for 2012
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j....44158598,d.b2I
 
Old 03 March 2013   #60
From Page 75

Quote: Animation
• Autodesk 3ds Max
Autodesk 3ds Max software provides 3D modeling, animation and rendering solutions that enable game developers,
design visualization professionals and visual effects artists to digitally create realistic images, animations and complex scenes
and to digitally communicate abstract or complex mechanical, architectural, engineering and construction concepts.
• Autodesk Maya
Autodesk Maya software provides 3D modeling, animation, effects, rendering and compositing solutions that enable film
and video artists, game developers and design visualization professionals to digitally create engaging, lifelike images, realistic
animations and simulations, and extraordinary visual effects.


Softimage isn't even listed. Ouch.
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