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Old 03-24-2013, 11:17 PM   #31
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SYmek, your post is either brilliant or incredibly stupid. I haven't decided yet, I'll soon get back on this one.

OK, I've decided: brilliant! Just to rob you a little of credit, I've kept saying this on other forum/s (not so eloquently put) and to some degree people responded in a way that I'd call positive.

Last edited by McNistor : 03-24-2013 at 11:20 PM.
 
Old 03-24-2013, 11:22 PM   #32
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@ symek

I'd agree with you if there would be a solid vision at ADSK&ME. there isn't. Maya would be obsolete today if it wasn't for the character animation tools it has. So instead of building upon that strength in the case of maya, they still try to catch up on everything and loose their focus.

Character animation plus dynamics should be the main focus of maya development. (And you better invest in a rendering engine than aquiring nonsense.) The rest is much faster, better and cheaper done in other apps.

Somebody at ADSK&ME should make a statement about what they will priotorize and should share the vision of the dev team for the future of maya and other apps.

Only then users will stop asking for ridicoulus features like better bevel/bolean tools.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:30 PM   #33
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I agree with you mustique, that Adsk has no vision but why is this in contradiction with SYmek said? It seems to me that it's true what you've both said.

Adsk, doesn't want to have a vision because they need not one. They don't want to commit. They follow the market (money) like leaf in the wind - wherever that takes it and at most, making a path correction from time to time when it suits them. Basically, they respect the "if it's not broken don't fix it" philosophy. I often wish they'd apply that when developing s/w as well.
 
Old 03-25-2013, 12:03 AM   #34
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You are right I need to elaborate.

Adsk has to make money. But it's getting harder to convince yourself or your boss to keep investing in their apps. Why?

Because most users like me are very confused about the future. I get the impression that the people over at adsk&me are even more confused.

They need to clear up any confusion on our side as well as their own.
They need to priotorize their markets for their apps, there's way too much overlapping.
Way too much wasted dev time. (I can't understand why they even try to sell suits with both or all three hostapps.)

"maya is a character animation&dynamics tool adressing film production"
If that's your priority you don't waste time with game development & modelling tools.

"Max is a archviz & game production tool"
If that's your priority you don't waste time with dynamics and film caliber character tools.

"Softimage is a broadcast animation & these and that tool"...

The above markets are just examples. But if adsk makes at least a commitment for the markets the apps are targeted, people will have better arguements to further invest in one of them (not all)

They do it better sooner than later. Because It's better for adsk to make a maya user switch to max, or vice versa instead of making him switch to c4d, modo or houdini isn't it.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:12 AM   #35
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Yeah, but I don't think that would satisfy most of the users either. I, for example, would like to see no part of Softimage being left behind just because Adsk doesn't consider that it addresses the market segment that I happen to be in.
They offer me something else for the market I'm in, but I reply that I don't want to work with anything else than Softimage because it's the best IMO. And then Maya and Max users do the same, so you see why Adsk likes to maintain the status quo. As long as there are people paying for any of the three, it's all good. Except that it's not any longer.
 
Old 03-25-2013, 12:37 AM   #36
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Yep it looks to be good for the short term for all parties involved. Except that none of them will be able to deliver on rising expectations in this fast changing landscape.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:06 AM   #37
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Best way to force change is to vote with your wallets...
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:23 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabab
Best way to force change is to vote with your wallets...

Not everybody has the option though.
AD has an entire, large subsection of several entertainment markets cornered.

It's simply unthinkable, at present time, for most film companies to use anything other than Maya for large intervals of the pipe, with Soft being the only alternative and (for years) now being owned by AD as well.

Same goes for game contents, just with Max thrown in as a prominent platform as well. Moot point anyway since we know who owns that too

Sure, you can bring up the odd case off of Lightwave or C4D, the only available end-to-end commercial DCC apps available as an alternative, to have been used, but those are statistical exceptions, often singularities based on completely different production models unique to those white-fly shows.

Voting through wallet aperture, for many, is not an option.
It's not that contenders aren't as good or any other flame war inducing argumentation, it's simply that when all of reality is considered, you don't have an alternative.

99% of the triple A game stuff out there is done with max, maya or softimage, and 95+ film content with Maya and Soft, again probably 99 if you loop max in (which isn't all that common in film).
Episodical or one-off broadcast work (other than motion graphics where C4D does incredibly well) is probably healthier, where you're only talking some 80 to 90 kind of incidence

While the extreme ends of the process have been eroded into to different extents by other contenders, and various gaps inbetween departments patched by smaller developers of plugins or niche tools, if you want to manage assets, rig, animate, and push to a rendering engine you're left with little choice.

I'd love to vote with my wallet, but from a practical stand-point my wallet can only vote between Maya and Soft, and if AD was to kill either, I'd only have the other to fall back to at present time.
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Last edited by ThE_JacO : 03-25-2013 at 01:26 AM.
 
Old 03-25-2013, 03:02 AM   #39
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Not trying to start a pissing contest but you do know both Valve and ID use a lot of Modo for game production? Honestly for game content 3dsmax isn't anything special anymore these days with 701 you can easily produce a complete AAA title..

Don't a lot of the big houses use huge amount of in-house tools anyway? Sure Maya is the incumbent but history has shown us how quickly that can change and given the rate which these big VFX houses die and come to life it opens up lots of opportunities for new pipelines..

Last but not least VFX isn't even the man bread winner for the most part the visualization market is a huge chunk of revenue and this style of work is done more by freelancers and small studio's who can change tools much easier and are more price sensitive..

Autodesk is company that is driven purely by numbers and they do drastic things when these numbers don't hit targets just look at how many good people they fired when they had 1 bad quarter as more and more of the revenue base is eroded how do you think its going to fair for the development of these packages? Just look at what XSI is now :(

2-3 years ago i could not do my job today with anything other then Max or Maya today i can i'm sure this hold true for a lot of people..

*Edit* Btw have you seen the new animation tools in 701 they are really impressive
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:21 AM   #40
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Of course things can change, but I mentioned when "all" of reality is considered for a reason.

Modo is turning out alright, but until the next version, not available for Linux (goodbye film), nor it has any support for custom viewports (and without one good luck with the integration part of a game engine).

I don't know how familiar you are with the entire pipe involved in producing a modern AAA title, but currently nobody would bet on Modo for an end-to-end solution, it simply misses too much.

And that's the crux of the problem. If you look at features, they all look more or less the same, but when you look past that, at what you need for infrastructure (the most defining and valuable asset defining a large studio's identity of any kind), your options are slashed to two or three.

Does Modo have custom viewports, custom DX shaders, an extensive API, years of track record with users using and reporting back on those features? Or any app other than Soft, Max or Maya for that matter (and all those three are a pain even after all these years).

Yes, studios have tons of propietary stuff, that's exactly the problem A mix of needing it supported, and entrenchment.

I hope things change soon, we need competition again, but sorry, for now the situation is what I described.

And I didn't mention how much of the industry is in which field, so don't get me wrong, my point is that not ALL of us can vote with our wallets.
I hope we will be able to soon, again, like we used to, but for now we don't, and it's not because we don't look at other products or solutions (because we do, and integrate on average over one new software in the pipe every year).

And yes, I've seen the animation/rigging features, more of the same early 90s stuff Soft and Maya have us stuck with. You don't migrate for a rehash of old stuff, when you already have it, however weathered, battle proven and tweaked to a fine art. We'd need a lot more than skinning and blend shapes to haul arse to a completely unproven animation platform.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:39 AM   #41
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FYI Modo 701 runs on Linux not just the headless mode then entire application the foundry spent the last 6 months doing the port....



Honestly the custom viewport thing for games is highly dependent on the engine your using in some cases its a massive waste of effort to bother with it. Many engines can hot load assets while the game is actually running so instead of previewing stuff in the viewport you can simply export/commit the asset into the game and have the asset update on the fly and you get to see it in the actual game context which your DCC view port will never do..

The only thing i can see 701 missing that some developers would want depending on the title are better tools for dealing with mo-cap data and that really is only needed for characters which is only one portion of a game since much of the work is done creating environments and prop's, might i also mention Modo has quiet decent sculpting and texture painting tools...

Have you seen all the completely procedural order of operation rigging stuff, dynamic parenting, node based rigging? It's shaping up really nicely...

Area's which Modo honestly has sucked well in 601 i don't know about 701 is referencing and handling scenes with thousands of unique items 701 might fix some of these issues though..
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:52 AM   #42
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History has recorded that big companies rarely produce good work. If they do, it's because they buy from some smaller companies. The software development for these big companies flow not like water, but like mud.
 
Old 03-25-2013, 04:02 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabab
FYI Modo 701 runs on Linux not just the headless mode then entire application the foundry spent the last 6 months doing the port....

See paragraph two, the part saying:
Modo is turning out alright, but until the next version, not available for Linux

Quote:
Honestly the custom viewport thing for games is highly dependent on the engine your using in some cases its a massive waste of effort to bother with it. Many engines can hot load assets while the game is actually running so instead of previewing stuff in the viewport you can simply export/commit the asset into the game and have the asset update on the fly and you get to see it in the actual game context which your DCC view port will never do..

That's why I was asking if you had worked on some.
Actually custom views in Maya and XSI -DO- allow to see the game running, in its own engine, through dev platforms, inside your client.
It's a rather important part of many pipes.

Hot loading is a huge waste of time actually, compared to live previews in engine, the opposite of what you seem to think
It's a possibility, and some do it, but some require it to be the other way around.

Quote:
The only thing i can see 701 missing that some developers would want depending on the title are better tools for dealing with mo-cap data and that really is only needed for characters which is only one portion of a game since much of the work is done creating environments and prop's, might i also mention Modo has quiet decent sculpting and texture painting tools...

This is becoming a "can modo do it" thing at this point.
If we're talking end-to-end, not just SOME parts of the pipe, sorry, no, it can't the way most triple A publishing pipelines work.

It can do an excellent job in MANY parts of one, and is in fact adopted for those, but it's not end-to-end yet. No amount of twisting and turning it makes it true at this point, not for the reality many studios live (and produce on the edge of absolute efficiency) with.

Quote:
Have you seen all the completely procedural order of operation rigging stuff, dynamic parenting, node based rigging? It's shaping up really nicely...

I have, and honestly it's all stuff we've already been doing for years, and have a wealth of tools and setups for.
That's why I mention entrenchment, and not enough momentum and boundary pushing to have people switch over. We'd have to overhaul the world to get out of the box (read: blackboxed) some tools we've had for years, and do things Maya and Soft are capable of out of the box (ICE), or can do with very limited and well proven development (most shops have their own graph systems integrated) we already have available.

Quote:
Area's which Modo honestly has sucked well in 601 i don't know about 701 is referencing and handling scenes with thousands of unique items 701 might fix some of these issues though..

Sure, but at present time we're still talking about an unproven future.
One I hope eventuates, but hasn't yet.

So, for now, until some good samaritans bleed their nose against unproven first generation ports and features, we're stuck with whatever AD has the clemency to do with Soft or Maya in Film, and Soft, Maya or Max in games.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:03 AM   #44
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Modo has quite a ways to go before it becomes viable for character animation. I like some of the things I have seen in 701, the dynamic parenting is awesome, the timeline scrub etc are all great but the core workflow is slow and clunky. The graph editor is barebones, the channel haul thing is pretty useless for me compared to how easy it is to isolate and key multiple parameters in Maya's channel box. The whole full body IK thing is the stuff of nightmares for animators, it is extremely unintuitive to pose and animate with it.

For me the most important thing is viewport speed and feedback which Maya has improved leaps and bounds with viewport 2.0. I can animate my character all lit and displaying displacement/normal maps on it with directx mode. I want modo to be great but they have quite a ways to go before becoming an animation solution. Pretty much all the examples of animation in modo I have seen so far are of extremely simple characters. Show me a film quality character rig and how modo manages to handle that level of complexity.

That said I am most likely going to be purchasing modo for all my personal/freelance projects with 701. I think it is a great solution for visualization and product design which is what I am trying to get more into. I can't justify spending 4k on max/maya + whatever the sub costs + the external renderers/plugins needed to make it viable. I would rather bet on modo and hope they listen to feedback regarding the animation stuff. Also Foundry has their shit together and them being partners with luxology gives me hope for modos future.

Looking forward to tomorrows modo event to see how 701 is.
 
Old 03-25-2013, 04:37 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
See paragraph two, the part saying:
Modo is turning out alright, but until the next version, not available for Linux

Sorry my bad...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
That's why I was asking if you had worked on some.
Actually custom views in Maya and XSI -DO- allow to see the game running, in its own engine, through dev platforms, inside your client.
It's a rather important part of many pipes.

Hot loading is a huge waste of time actually, compared to live previews in engine, the opposite of what you seem to think
It's a possibility, and some do it, but some require it to be the other way around.

My reference to hot loading was in engine and/or in run-time since many newer engines allow you to play the game in the IDE sorry for any ambiguity..

I've made some advert games (proper 3D games) and worked on many game based training simulation stuff etc..

I'm still not a fan of this idea your spending all this time and effort binding yourself to a certain platform which should really be more agnostic it just becomes something else to maintain. I guess you can have 2 philosophies here one is where you are game engine centric and one where your DCC product centric to me being game centric makes more sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
But this is a whole different topic

This is becoming a "can modo do it" thing at this point.
If we're talking end-to-end, not just SOME parts of the pipe, sorry, no, it can't the way most triple A publishing pipelines work.

It can do an excellent job in MANY parts of one, and is in fact adopted for those, but it's not end-to-end yet. No amount of twisting and turning it makes it true at this point, not for the reality many studios live (and produce on the edge of absolute efficiency) with.

I agree but coming back to my initial point as tools like Modo in this context become better more well rounded start to cover more ground this starts to erode more of Autodesk's revenue stream, maybe some studio had 50 Maya licenses for modelling well now they are using 50 Modo licenses or C4D etc... How Autodesk reacts to this will be very interesting... Last time they had a revenue dip they went on a mass firing spree which we can all agree is bad! What will they do now that they have such competition will it force them to develop better or will they try and consolidate their product offerings and development teams to get better ROI..

I guess that was the crux of my argument it didn't really mean to become a pissing match..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
I have, and honestly it's all stuff we've already been doing for years, and have a wealth of tools and setups for.
That's why I mention entrenchment, and not enough momentum and boundary pushing to have people switch over. We'd have to overhaul the world to get out of the box (read: blackboxed) some tools we've had for years, and do things Maya and Soft are capable of out of the box (ICE), or can do with very limited and well proven development (most shops have their own graph systems integrated) we already have available.

What will you guys do though if something drastic happens like they announce Maya is going into support mode and all future development will be on 3dsmax like they did with combustion and toxic not impossible given Max makes ton's more money and probably has much better ROI then Maya it's clear now that XSI is on the chopping block...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
Sure, but at present time we're still talking about an unproven future.
One I hope eventuates, but hasn't yet.

So, for now, until some good samaritans bleed their nose against unproven first generation ports and features, we're stuck with whatever AD has the clemency to do with Soft or Maya in Film, and Soft, Maya or Max in games.


For now for some segments of the user base definitely but day by day more and more people are becoming free from the shackles...

*Edit*

This exactly the kinda thing i'm ranting on about

Quote:
Originally Posted by SheepFactory
That said I am most likely going to be purchasing modo for all my personal/freelance projects with 701. I think it is a great solution for visualization and product design which is what I am trying to get more into. I can't justify spending 4k on max/maya + whatever the sub costs + the external renderers/plugins needed to make it viable. I would rather bet on modo and hope they listen to feedback regarding the animation stuff.


I feel a lot of people are doing this and this will become a very big problem soon for Autodesk.. 3 years ago this would have been a nice sale for Adsk and a few years worth of sub's now its not...

btw SheepFactory here is a quote from Brad about the future of animation in Modo..

Quote:
Quote from BradPeebler :
701 does not have an NLA. However, I will tell you that it has always been intended and in fact, the infrastructure to enable an NLA (motion blending, etc) is in your hands already in 601. The system for Actions is there to enable this sort of functionality over time (no pun intended). As you know, you can have multiple actions per character now. In the "future" you will be able to add multiple actions to a track- and blend them.

We planned many, many things for modo in the very beginning and as such we architected and implemented according to that plan. The end result is that as we enable specific things you will feel a much better integration with the rest of the system. It hasn't been perfect, but the plan has worked very well in many areas so far.

But now I've said too much!

B

http://forums.luxology.com/topic.as...p=668285&page=2
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