need help in quadruped limb setup

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  10 October 2004
Howdy,

Originally Posted by eek: As for spine setups, we have two techniques. 3 bone setup and 6/8bone setup. They dont use IkSpline, there a hybrid custom setup combining ik and fk in one. Not like a ik/fk arm but more like a medium between the two. Very simple to setup but pretty powerful.


Would it be possible for you to give a more detailed explanation of this type of spine rig? I've used either Spline IK setups or hierarchal rotation (FK) set ups for a spine rig, but I've always wondered how to combine both IK and FK in one set up.

I saw the image of your dog rig (nice), but I'm on a Mac so I couldn't check out your 3DS Max file. Did you use that kind of spine setup for the dog rig?

Adios,
Cactus Dan
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  10 October 2004
Yes i did Cactus,

All our rigs at work use that setup for both biped and quadraped. Its based on a spine called the Isner spine with a few modifactions. We have two main controls torso and upper torso, then a three finite controls: Hips and chest and head.

Torso controls:
hips
upper torso

Upper torso controls:
chest
head

Rotations drive fk, where as tranlations drive ik.

There where many Isner spine variations, it was first developed under softimage then SpineIK replaced it in a way on Maya and Max. But my setup goes back to the true isner setup which wasnt reliant on a curve but used expressions. Its a hybrid setup combining the feel of both ik and fk in one. My setup does exactly the same thing but uses constraints and ik handles.

http://www.isner.com/isnerspine/spine_introduction.htm

eek




eek
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  10 October 2004
Howdy,

eek:
Thanks for the info and the link. Now let's see if this old dog can learn a new trick.

Adios,
Cactus Dan
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  10 October 2004
Eek, that is one that I have looked at but not tried myself as I have had a working system using a spline since before spline IK. I don't know my way around XSI very well at all so it would be hard for me to pull that apart. Can you discribe it a bit more in Max or Maya terms, or just general math terms?
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Paul Neale
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  10 October 2004
I forgot to mention that I added another movie to my site showing the IK solvers working in quadrapeds leg. You can see it on my site in the tech section or here...

http://paulneale.com/technical/quadrapedOutline/QuadLeg.wmv
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Paul Neale
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  10 October 2004
Oh wow Paul this is just awesome work you did there...
your donkey rig is great and not to speak of the arnlod and ogre rig, this muscle system is really great..is it on your dvd??
You did the muscles with stretchy bones right?? Are those muscle meshes just for visual purpose or do you do the skinning with the actual mesh??

ok I think I have an exercise to do, rebuilding your quad rig, this is just awesome, and after that I try one of the biped.
well I think I will try it in maya
and I have already some questions, where have you put ik on both legs and the stomach and spine??
and how many expressions have you used, it's hard to figure out, I think one is on the legs for the knee

thanks paul for your awesome work
and eek aswell, looking really forward for your facial system
 
  10 October 2004
Thanks

Well what is on the DVD is not the ful blown muscle system that you see on my site. The first DVD series is intermediate level and covers why and how I rig production ready characters. The basis for the foot rig using the same principals but in Max 6 are covered on the DVD. The Ogre rig on my site is Max 7 so it using some of the new tools. Most of it I could do in 6 though.

The muscle meshs will be used in the skinning of the character And no, I'm not using any plugins, this is part of the tests that i'm doing on this character.

I will do a Max 7 update DVD for rigging as well though.

For the quad rig is it using my own style of spline IK that will be covered on my second DVD, it has IK on the stomach and four on each leg. The spine is both IK and FK working together with no switching needed. It also has on flipping problems that you see on the built in spline IK systems.
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  10 October 2004
Hi Paul,

Better than that here is a thread to a version (8 bones stretchy). Which i made after watching a gollum video. I liked there setup and made it myself. I love finding really complex setups and reproducing them in max, its one way i taught myself.

Thats why we went down our own custom route, splineIK's got quite a few probs i dont like i.e flipping etc. Our system is basically pretty indistructable.

The Isner spine if i remember came out about 4 years ago, then got intergrated into xsi.

eek
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  10 October 2004
Eek, would it be possible for you to make a small, short animation so I can see your spine setup in action? I'm using LightWave for my 3D animations, and I can't use the rig itself, so I'd like to see how it might work. I've seen a few new variations of XSI, Max, and Maya spine rigs showing up on the LightWave forums lately, and I think it might be possible to duplicate the functionality somehow if I could just have a look at how it moves and how you control it. I would appreciate it very much if you could. You're making me curious, and it's driving me crazy!
 
  10 October 2004
ok thanks alot paul,
I tried to reproduce your donkey rig in maya and I almost got everything working except of the spine area, this is one thing I still have to figure out some how but it is a great rig...and I already learned alot from you just from trying to reproduce the rig, well I think there still is a better way to do your rig in maya than mine but still learning...

to the muscle system, so the mesh of the ogre is affected by the muscle mesh??
wow this would be really great...and are you driving the muscles with stretchy bones, skin the muscle mesh to these bones and skin the character geometry based on the muscle mesh??
I'm just curious, well I really like that system
 
  10 October 2004
hamu73: I am not sure if this is how Paul is doing it or not but you can actually use bones as your muscles. You simply create the stretchy bones and then add an edit poly (or edit mesh) on top of them and cut in new geometry and make it look however you want. Then you just enable the stretch (or squash) in the bone properties and away you go. No need to skin the muscles with stretchy bones because theya re stretchy bones.
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  10 October 2004
yes I first thought he did it that way, but wasn't sure about that therefore I asked again.
The whole system looks so increadible cool, but I think it will take a me quite some time to be able to do this...well I perhaps also try out your great head rig Harvey, this looks so cool, and I always wondering who did this great rig, but at this time it was way beyond my skills
 
  10 October 2004
eek, Thanks for the file. I'll rip it apart when I have some time

hamu73, Good to see that others are learning from it. I do similar rigs in Maya, you use a bit different method for you do it for the same reason you do it in any package, to make a useable rig

Harvey, Skinning right to the bones is one way, or you can Skin wrap to the muscles Max 7 has arrived!

hamu73, The rig is actualy two completely seperate rigs with a custom tool to bring them together. One for skinning and the other is for animation. This means I can keep the complexity of the animation rig to a minimum and do what ever I want to the skin rig as you only have to see it when you want a render.

Unfortunatly I have been to busy with clients to further the work on this rig but will get back to it soon. One thing about running your own business is some weeks I have nothing to do and other I have way to much to do.
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Paul Neale
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  10 October 2004
oh yeah max 7 has Skinwrap, too bad that I don't have max 7....

is there something like Skinwrap in maya??

well I think it will take a while to figure out your spine setup...
I actually tried it and noticed that it is really awesome how you set that up, well it is really complex all the connections everywhere, but I will try it again, well got almost the ik system running still have so do the fk control
 
  10 October 2004
Quote: eek, Thanks for the file. I'll rip it apart when I have some time

eek!

Paul, you should be able to figure it out easily, its very simple. The nice thing too is that you can change how the spine actually bends!.

I'll post a clip for you guys today, of the spine setup. Yep most of my stuff is simple parts stacked together.

But about 100 simple parts hehe..

eek
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Last edited by eek : 10 October 2004 at 09:42 AM.
 
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