R9 vs Meshsurgury modeling

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  10 October 2004
I love MS and I was thinking about Storm but I have to worry that if Maxon puts out a update for TP or pyrocluster will Storm continue to be supported? I like what those guys have done with MS and storm and I know as well as everyone else does that 3D companys will always improve there app. I think it up to the plugin developers to keep there apps better then the companys app/tools if they want people to keep buying them. If they decied not to develop the plugin anymore then that is there choice and I thank them for doing it the first time.I have an idea for Per-Anders and Paul Everett: make a set of plugins that improves C4D animation and rigging tools so that they are more like messiah or even Animation master and you will have a plugin that I would bet will be around for a long time.
 
  10 October 2004
Hmm. I was thinking more along the lines of Cactus Dan and Stray (and maybe Fabian?) getting together and making a super rigging thing, maybe even take over Bonderland? Per and Paul have proven to be quite effective working together.
I think they (The Third Party) have a lot on their plate already. From what Maxon has said about the modeling tools, they were just bringing them up to speed with other apps. Also, ngons was one of the most requested features. So Maxon revamped Cinema to take advantage of ngons and added modeling tools to boot. I don't see a lot of call for Storm like functions though in the feature requests threads. So I doubt Maxon would spend the time in development.
Per has also said that both MS and Storm would be supported, and in fact the next revision of Storm is right around the corner and it looks very cool. I guess what I'm trying to say is not to worry and invest in Storm if you need fast powerful particle tools. They also have mentioned another plug for texturing I think.. so if they have rigging tools in mind I'm sure it's wayyy down the pipe.


Originally Posted by dfaris: I love MS and I was thinking about Storm but I have to worry that if Maxon puts out a update for TP or pyrocluster will Storm continue to be supported? I like what those guys have done with MS and storm and I know as well as everyone else does that 3D companys will always improve there app. I think it up to the plugin developers to keep there apps better then the companys app/tools if they want people to keep buying them. If they decied not to develop the plugin anymore then that is there choice and I thank them for doing it the first time.I have an idea for Per-Anders and Paul Everett: make a set of plugins that improves C4D animation and rigging tools so that they are more like messiah or even Animation master and you will have a plugin that I would bet will be around for a long time.
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  10 October 2004
Originally Posted by Neoklassik: so if they have rigging tools in mind I'm sure it's wayyy down the pipe.


just on a side note here with regards to the rigging, but I've just been spending the last day or so playing with Mocca in the update... I definitely wouldn't under rate it, you still need to work your way into it (no magic button) but personally on a first impression I'm finding it's pretty damn cool.
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  10 October 2004
whether we perceive a copy of MS in R9 is not really important the questions that should be asked are: is it profitably to Third Party to keep updating it or not...and whether the whole process of implementing a toolset like this in R9 has actually soured the relationship between another plugin developer and maxon and will they continue developing for c4d. Its clear they feel their MS suite has been copied so no amount of denials from maxonians will help in this regard. Hopefully they will continue with renewed vigour but i can understand it if they didn't.
good luck to them either way because some software community will benefit from there experience and creativity for sure. One thing to note is i've certainly had my moneys worth out of MS and would like to see a V2 anyways.
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One never knows what each day is going to bring. The important thing is to be open and ready for it.

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  10 October 2004
Quote: Its clear they feel their MS suite has been copied so no amount of denials from maxonians will help in this regard.

Personaly speaking I think you are right.

However, I am glad they did copy MS because R9 is a better tool for it. My regret is that they did not copy it far enough and they definately did not improve on it. As someone already said most of the tools, not all of them, did exist for a long time out there, the workflow though did not. The workflow of MS is superb.

Still, as I said at the start of another thread that has gone all over the shop, I do hope they develop it further.

One last point, application development has not only to do with funtions but it also has to do with style, workflow understanding and ergonomics. However well Maxon copies MS into their app Third party have an excellent understanding of all the above points. To this Visual Selector and MS are a testiment. The guys have a flair which should be encouraged by Maxon in my opinion.

regards

jannis
 
  10 October 2004
Regarding plugin developer encourgement

MS is so great because of the look, feel, and workflow of the tools they developed. Maxon is wee bit dense to reinvent the tools that were already there and step on the toes of the previous developers. But, it is not about stealing their ideas, that is way too strong to describe the situation. I think the people who have Mesh Surgery would continue to use it in v.9 based on look and feel. I think they could attract a lot more customers with a demo. Cinema 4D has a user base that comes from the applications usefulness, Mesh Surgery is part of that usefulness and without it there are many modeling opitions missing. In general, a big part of the relationship between a programs ownership and its plugin developers is corporate size. Discreet and Adobe buyout plugin developers because they have deeper pockets. I think that is a limited option for Maxon.
 
  10 October 2004
Just a few scattered thoughts since this topic has been covered pretty well above:

* Seems the statement that MS would have to be rewritten supports Maxon's decision to go it alone. Why buy a plugin that you're going to have to rewrite anyway--especially when it's unfamiliar code that you would first have to decipher;

* OTOH, it would have been nice if there had been some arrangment regarding the intellectual property aspect--a purchase of the specific MS workflow, superflange, and loop algorithms which I agree are superior in MS;

* There should be more to product support than a straight calculation of how much money you're going to make on an update vs. the work involved. As a consumer and businessman I have to evaluate whether my purchase is going to have value for a year or two or whether it's a longer-term investment. It appears that MS and now Surface Painter won't be updated for R9+ and that certainly goes into the hopper as I decide whether to invest $400-500 on a NET-enabled version of Storm Tracer.
 
  10 October 2004
Originally Posted by AdamT: algorithms which I agree are superior in MS;

* . It appears that MS and now Surface Painter won't be updated for R9+ and that certainly goes into the hopper as I decide whether to invest $400-500 on a NET-enabled version of Storm Tracer.


What doesn't work in Surface painter? I tested it out and it seemed to work for me.
 
  10 October 2004
Originally Posted by AdamT: Just a few scattered thoughts since this topic has been covered pretty well above:

* Seems the statement that MS would have to be rewritten supports Maxon's decision to go it alone. Why buy a plugin that you're going to have to rewrite anyway--especially when it's unfamiliar code that you would first have to decipher;

* OTOH, it would have been nice if there had been some arrangment regarding the intellectual property aspect--a purchase of the specific MS workflow, superflange, and loop algorithms which I agree are superior in MS;

* There should be more to product support than a straight calculation of how much money you're going to make on an update vs. the work involved. As a consumer and businessman I have to evaluate whether my purchase is going to have value for a year or two or whether it's a longer-term investment. It appears that MS and now Surface Painter won't be updated for R9+ and that certainly goes into the hopper as I decide whether to invest $400-500 on a NET-enabled version of Storm Tracer.

jannis was right that R9's implementation of parts MS makes R9 the better for it. But crucial things like superflange were missed out and maxon developing on tool functions like this would have been better...no one seriously is doubting R9 modelling tools can't hack it cos its obvious they are top stuff...but in a way opportunity was missed...and i'll explain why before someone shoots me..heh heh. basically we have a lesser than MS capability..rather than a more than MS capabilty in R9...the tools are exceptional as a result but they are not groundbreaking which is what they could have been (subject to time as always) if they had licensed ideas like superflange and adapted functionality into c4d workflow/gui. don't get me wrong these things in R9 are very nice but fill gaps in modelling from a while ago..they don't lift the bar for dedicated modelling apps out there.

as to stormtracer this is a really dilemma for maxon, developers and users...

developers don't want to see there ingenuity being lifted for each new maxon release so therefore no plugin sales as users wait for maxon to implement it

maxon want continued developer support but are accused of lifting developers ideas

users think why bother buying the plugin..it'll be along in R10! and support will be stopped anyways

no one wins from this...
definitely needs considering by all parties.
how its resolved i'm not sure really..in a way the genie is out of the bottle so to speak.

if i see and need a particular plugin i'll buy it anyways...because if you'd don't buy it the developer will definitely not continue supporting it as he isn't selling it! heh heh.
so if you have a need for stormstracer and like the idea my advice is get it because you'll get a year and a halfs usage out of it anyways even if maxon implement it, and you'll be supporting continued development of whatever third party release next..which is no bad thing and will make you all warm inside as well has having clients with cutting edge effects in there orders which'll keep them happy.

anyways i've no doubt maxon has more to come on the modelling front anyways, and third party still have stormtracer to fund development.
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One never knows what each day is going to bring. The important thing is to be open and ready for it.

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  10 October 2004
Hmm, I just saw this at Postforum:

"I am very sad, Paul Everett told me :

"Surface painter will not run in r9.
I will also not be updating this plugin to run in R9.
Sadly I can not justify another rewrite as only 30 people ever purchased
the r7->r8 update."

But I just tried it in R9 and it *does* seem to work. Maybe there's some function that's not right but I haven't found it yet. Strange.
 
  10 October 2004
Originally Posted by AdamT: Hmm, I just saw this at Postforum:

"I am very sad, Paul Everett told me :

"Surface painter will not run in r9.
I will also not be updating this plugin to run in R9.
Sadly I can not justify another rewrite as only 30 people ever purchased
the r7->r8 update."

But I just tried it in R9 and it *does* seem to work. Maybe there's some function that's not right but I haven't found it yet. Strange.


As I said above I tested out and it seemed find, this was with the demo. I just tried it out again on my paid copy of R9 and it paints the first stroke fine after that any additional strokes causes C4d to crash. :(
 
  10 October 2004
Originally Posted by flyingP: just on a side note here with regards to the rigging, but I've just been spending the last day or so playing with Mocca in the update... I definitely wouldn't under rate it, you still need to work your way into it (no magic button) but personally on a first impression I'm finding it's pretty damn cool.

I have not really messed with Mocca in R9 yet. Can you tell me some of the things that you like more about it?
 
  10 October 2004
same here, Surface Painter crashes c4d--
sad news he wont update, its a terrific plug.

Paul of course has to decide where to put his work time, I understand he has to let go some of his works in favour for the new (and profitable) plugs like stormtracer (which I am considering to buy at some point).
MS was the absolute Uber-Plugin due to teh massive update of the modellingtools, and i miss hinge move/rotate and superflange and the better soft-selections, but to be honest the R9 modelling improvements, though not as cool as MS with the tools with similarities, kick ass on its own.
I just did a couple of jobs with R9 and once used to the new tools, they are hi-quality and fast workflow.
Tweakmode is 100% cool.
selection auto-conversion is superb.
The knife is different than MS (definitely not a copy) but nice on its own (cutting holes),
Brush is maybe the feature most MS like and much weaker than MS brush.but it was inspired by Z-brush, anyway, so I dunno if copied is the right word for it.in the end some features are just in the air--.
Maybe Per and Paul should copy the cool Mesh-paint tool from Silo, I would absolutely spend money for that in Cinema.

Olli
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  10 October 2004
Originally Posted by AdamT: Hmm, I just saw this at Postforum:

"I am very sad, Paul Everett told me :

"Surface painter will not run in r9.
I will also not be updating this plugin to run in R9.
Sadly I can not justify another rewrite as only 30 people ever purchased
the r7->r8 update."

But I just tried it in R9 and it *does* seem to work. Maybe there's some function that's not right but I haven't found it yet. Strange.

Oh man that really sucks. I love surface painter this is something that could be updated because there is nothing like it on R9. Well at least part of it works.
 
  10 October 2004
Kai's PLAY BY PLAY


First the majority of users complain that maxon ruipped off Third Party
A few users then retaliate justifying maxons need to improve its tools and such
Now users seem to be complaining that maxon didnt copy the tools right


Oh the irony, you guys are too much. Its these differences these lackings that justify why MS is still needed and useful. And one thing about superflange, thats one thing maxon wouldn't go near, dunno if Paul and Per have a patent on it yet, but I know they tried to get the patent pending, so its a dangerous area for anyone to get into because its something truly original thats hard dispute, most the other stuff (fuzzy smoth was another pretty original one) exists in other applications and such to some extent, workflow will differ but basic concepts don't, so maxon as much copied MS as they did other apps (same goes for MS istelf)

They developed their own original versions of these tools, thats why they are different, if maxon makes a similar tool they get nailed for copying and nailed for not copying, thats just too funny. They are screwing the plugin developers and not screwing them well enough.



As for mocca II, dunno if you want that to get lost in this thread dfaris, maybe start a new thread or try finding an older related thread to continue from and I'll gladly post in it but here it will get lost in the funny debate. (least their is more DEBATE here then the US electoral debate last night)
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