vray like renders ?

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  07 July 2004
wow allot of replies since i went to sleep at 3:30 and now. First off what i was saying earlier is, like in the other thread, it would be nice to see the exact same scene in the zip rendered in vray for comparison purposes and maybe your most recent light set up for c4d. Then once we have a closer starting point theyre will be more time for tweaking.

twighlight i realy couldnt agree with you more about y 3dsmax is the best selling 3d app. I have thought that many times. Its core may suck but theyre is a plugin for everything and all types of resources. After using c4d demo for a while and it was time to buy i went through a stage when i considered 3dsmax for that reason alone. I quickly snapped out of my insanity after seeing the price tag but the truth remains. Cinema 4d doesnt have much conection to anything. Sure its great at most everything and doesnt need to much but when you get down to it that intentional isolation is hurting it. Open architectural is also a big deal. I hope this can be seen more in c4d w/o more crashes. I think cinema will not create a bridge app because its renderer is its best feature. If i were maxon i would be working frantically to make sure my renderer stayed tops. Sure i would love for you to be able to pick and chose your renderer but i doubt it will ever happen. Still with the motion builder and c4d bundle a new trend is seen. Mocca is a competitor with motionbuilder so why would maxon make a bridge to a competeing app (for animation)? Because animation is weak in c4d and they realized that it would be cheaper and better for theyre users to focus on thyre strengths, but maxon, i think, will never give up on theyre renderer. Instead they should work on improving it. I agree about the artifacts. I cant get rid of some no matter how high the settings. Its not just render time.
I would have to disagree on sharpness c4ds rendere is plenty sharp but the gi and radiosity isnt. The geometry renders sharp but if you have smudgy litle shadow it take the sharp feel away. Your vray amon other vray renders is very nice. I have never seen an interior architetural in c4d with the same ambient bright light. This worries me and i think theres sumthing to it. We hopefully can figure it out. I have never used vray but i can tell you when i see certain renders they just look like vray. I think vray renders all most hqve the feel more of c4ds stochastic radiosity but smoother. cant wait to see some of these test strt rolling in.
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  07 July 2004
unfortunately its not so quick and easy to test comparisons at the end of the day even with the file...but i'm sure people will be taking a look at it...its actually a good way to do it and share settings i remember a faking gi thread awhile ago which got loads of response.

one thing i wanna add here is c4d strengths really are max's weaknesses in a sense ...stability and renderer...neither of which i would like maxon to abandon these are to two reasons i bought c4d.... wouldn't want it to go the way of the rest abandoning native ...maybe this is inevitable in the end...BUT i hope not!
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  07 July 2004
Yeah your right flingster, but maxs weaknesses can be suplemented by you choice of atleast 4 great renderes and tons of plugs. There is no substitute for stability though. I just hope that if maxon doesnt allow suport for external renderers (and i doubt, though they should, that they will) that they will make sure c4d doesnt fall behind.


And trust me i know its not so quick ive been playing with that file and though i haven realy worked to much on it i know its not easy.
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  07 July 2004
well downloaded it, had a quick ol play, 27 minutes of render (and 2 minutes of quick color balance in photoshop) later, and this is the result. some artifacts (in roughly the same plaes ther are artifacts in the original (i.e. above the curtains etc). not perfect, but not too painful, an ok starting point i'll say. lweored the min aa to 1x1 and standard aa, not catmull, hence the moire on the sofa. don't have any more time to play right now though.

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Last edited by mdme_sadie : 07 July 2004 at 02:08 AM.
 
  07 July 2004
wow those are some realy nice results. Anyway we could get the file id like to test and see if i get artifacts on my computer (if hardware makes a diference) and do a render time comparison as well as i would just like a starting point for the lighting becuase i was having weird problems before. I still think the vray is nicer though but thats very nice. also in the file i downloaded the couch is fliped and the light above the table is gone did you flip it back that way or are theyre multiple versions.
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Last edited by BESTrin : 07 July 2004 at 03:30 AM.
 
  07 July 2004
@mdme_sadie:

Wow! Great results so far and in such a short time.
I still like the vray image better but you're heading the right way.
I think you are very near to the limits of C4D. Tweaking the GI settings will hopefuly get rid of the artifacts. After that you'll get into a 'no feature' zone: the blurriness on the floor adds great realism to the vray image and so does the micropoly displacement on the rug.
Also, i think it still lacks that 'atmosphere'... i can't explain it.
Anyway, great work and thanks for trying. I hope you'll get deeper into this.
I'd love to see the lighting setup you used and the GI settings.


@BESTrin

Since i've exported the scene from C4D to 3dsmax i've changed it a bit. The couch is flipped, the lamp over the table was created in 3dsmax, etc.
There is only one version of the C4D file, you'll have to flip the couch if you want to recreate the exact same scene. Sorry about that.

@flingster

Quote: one thing i wanna add here is c4d strengths really are max's weaknesses in a sense

I don't agree!! Comparing 3dsmax to C4D is like comparing a Ford Pinto to a Mercedes SL!!!
Cinema 4D is wonderful to work with, it's fast, intuitive, rock solid and even addicting! The Object Manager is so good it should be integrated into every 3D app, from bryce to maya!
Modelling in C4D is too easy. Everything works the way it's supposed to work.

On the other hand 3dsmax is a nightmare to work with! It crashes without notice or apparent reason, it simply disappears! Well, it doesn't just disappear, the program is gone but the process is still running and taking 80% of you system resources.
Trying to find an object in a scene is an adventure, a real mess.
OpenGL... you can choose 4 display modes in 3dsmax: heidi, directX, openGL and custom. I've tried them all and none of them works as expected. The display is always too slow, even with the custom made Maxtreme drivers from nVidia. OpenGL is a joke in 3dsmax.


I'm using 3dsmax only because of vray, believe me! And so are many others.
It bothers me that such a lousy program gets such a great renderer!
I hope Maxon will fix this. Who knows, maybe r9 will come with an improved GI engine!

 
  07 July 2004
Originally Posted by twilight: One vray light in each window acting as portals. Portals are supposed to "drag" the light inside the room, and that's pretty much what they do. The nearest thing to a portal in C4D is an area light, but it won't "drag" light inside the room...

what about square spots with an inverse square falloff and very wide angles (around 170)?
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  07 July 2004
twilight: for the past few months max6 has only crashed 2x for me so don't say it crashes all the time maybe for your hardware setup it does. Look at how many companies use it and I doubt they would be if it crashed on them on a daily basis. There are video card requirements on the discreet website maybe yours isn't one of them. I like c4d but when it comes to polymodeling toolset max is king and of course vray is amazing, hopefully c4d9 will add some great features especially for modeling and rendering etc.
 
  07 July 2004
Originally Posted by bolek: I like c4d but when it comes to polymodeling toolset max is king

You can't be serious. C4D while lacking Ngon and a more efficient modeling workflow has a better toolset for poly modeling than max. Max isn't even leading the pack in poly modeling but has been for along time just following along. I say they are about even with Maya in regard to toolset and horrible workflow for poly modeling.


Cheers,
 
  07 July 2004
really ? there are so many functions/tools in max for polymodeling and many are not in c4d so how is it better ? yes the modeling workflow is better in c4d but not the toolset
 
  07 July 2004
[QUOTE=twilight
@flingster

I don't agree!! Comparing 3dsmax to C4D is like comparing a Ford Pinto to a Mercedes SL!!!
Cinema 4D is wonderful to work with, it's fast, intuitive, rock solid and even addicting! The Object Manager is so good it should be integrated into every 3D app, from bryce to maya!
Modelling in C4D is too easy. Everything works the way it's supposed to work.

On the other hand 3dsmax is a nightmare to work with! It crashes without notice or apparent reason, it simply disappears! Well, it doesn't just disappear, the program is gone but the process is still running and taking 80% of you system resources.
Trying to find an object in a scene is an adventure, a real mess.
OpenGL... you can choose 4 display modes in 3dsmax: heidi, directX, openGL and custom. I've tried them all and none of them works as expected. The display is always too slow, even with the custom made Maxtreme drivers from nVidia. OpenGL is a joke in 3dsmax.


I'm using 3dsmax only because of vray, believe me! And so are many others.
It bothers me that such a lousy program gets such a great renderer!
I hope Maxon will fix this. Who knows, maybe r9 will come with an improved GI engine!

[/QUOTE]
not sure how you say you don't agree with me when you point out the two reasons i gave for strengths/weaknesses...
1) stability...c4d is legendary..and as you point maxs is legendary for a different reason of course
2) renderer...c4d is fast and quality....maxs...well you decided not to use max's but vray...
i mean you paided all the bucks for max and then for vray...
so i'm still confused by why you don't agree with me...but reiterate my arguement. not that it matters that much really it was more an observation based on the discussion in this thread rather than anything else.
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One never knows what each day is going to bring. The important thing is to be open and ready for it.

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  07 July 2004
Originally Posted by bolek: really ? there are so many functions/tools in max for polymodeling and many are not in c4d so how is it better ? yes the modeling workflow is better in c4d but not the toolset

Max does have more tools, but more doesn't necessarily mean better. I had to work with Max the last 3 months on a contract modeling job, and I just found the tools to be bloated and cumbersome to work with, with gizmos and dialogs and such, the tools need to be far more fluid and seamless so a modeler could work faster without too many little gaps to check things off and on, and set values and search through menus. Not to mention trying to modeler in the Presp view in Max is painfull. I did get a chance to monkey around with Vray and I was very impressed with the speed and quality, I can't wait for this renderer to go standalone.


Cheers,
 
  07 July 2004
@flingster

I don't agree with you because i think C4D has a lot less weak points than 3dsmax, just that.
I agree with you, i just think 3dsmax without vray wouldn't be an alternative at all.
So, the weak point in C4D is not having a connection to vray.
The day Vray comes out as a Maya plugin i'll be counting my money for a Maya license!

@bolek

I thought 3dsmax polygon toolset was better but as usual it's not that good. How can you consider it a good toolset if you don't even have a 'bridge' tool????
Discreet had to borrow a polygon toolset because everyone was going for it but as usual they just plugged in some scripts.

As for C4D's simplicity i agree with you. At first the tools in C4D look too basic but from my experience i can tell you there's nothing you can't model with it. As a matter of fact that's one of the strongest points in C4D, simplicity=efficiency!!

About 3dsmax crashing... well it does crash a lot!
I'm using a dual xeon 2.2Ghz with 1Gb ram and a nVidia quadro 4 700GLX... about 3.500U$ of machinery... isn't that enough for 3dsmax? Why? I can run Maya, XSI, C4D, After Effects, whatever without a single crash in months... why is my hardware to blame when 3dsmax keeps crashing? I'm sorry, i'm listening to that excuse for too long. There's nothing wrong with my hardware, but there's something awfully wrong with 3dsmax.
If it wasn't so why would discreet release 3dsmax 6 sp1? Just for fun?

I don't want to turn this into a 'my program is better than yours' thread. I use both programs and i'm loving the results i'm getting with vray and that alone is enough to make thank discreet for 3dsmax.

Keep it up!
 
  07 July 2004
ok bud i understand what you mean now..
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One never knows what each day is going to bring. The important thing is to be open and ready for it.

Henry Moore
 
  07 July 2004
cmon guys - lets see more attempts at recreating the scene in C4D - nice one there Mdme Sadie! - i want to see more!
 
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